Completed 2.0l Conversion

[jengis 0]

I have had the XU10J2 engine from a 306 XSi in the 205 (1.6 GTi) for 2 months now and thought people may like to know some pros and cons of the conversion. I used the 205's Jetronic engine management as the 306 XSi inlet plenum seemed too long/high to fit (and I hate wiring). Please see the post in small conversions section for full low-down on the job.

 

It was a fairly straight forward swap, as expected. The simplicity of it is the main reason for choosing this engine as I am no expert in mechanics. Its also cheap. £250 may sound like a lot for a second hand engine but I was confident of its history and I got an XSi gearbox, new clutch, loom, starter and alternator plus a box of various other associated 306 bits for that price. ( I chose to run the 1.6 box though, XSi one for spares)

 

To say I am pleased with the resultant performance is an understatement. I know I was going from a 1.6 but it’s such a big increase in useable power. Many people go for 1.9 conversions, as it’s such an obvious budget upgrade. I must admit to not having driven a 1.9, so I can’t compare. I also have a 306 GTi-6 and the 205 is now the quicker car, especially at lower speeds. I have not had it on the rollers but I have other (admittedly slightly illegal) ways of measuring car performance and it has surprised me how well it goes. For example, 60 – 100 mph in 11.0 seconds (average of 3 runs, all within 0.3 secs) wheras the GTi-6 takes 12.5 seconds. Standard 1.9 GTi’s are around 14 seconds (according to various publications).

 

I cannot say that the extra weight of the iron block has much effect on handling. Theoretically it should dull the response to turn-in and have a more understeer balance but I cannot feel it. I believe it is about 23 kg heavier than the XU5/9JA but I never weighed the difference. On track it may be an issue, but really, on the road there’s no problem.

 

The Jetronic management runs the engine fine and combined with my tweeked dizzy it runs really well. I would like to try the 1.6 GTi cam in it (apparently it has more lift than the 1.9, which others run with this head) but the way it pulls hard up to 6800 RPM makes me wonder why people say the XU10 cam is so bad. It suits it fine and revs well.

 

I would say the XU10 is a better starting point for an 8v engine than the 1.9 due to the bigger valves and capacity. It’s quoted 123 BHP is perhaps conservative and pegged back by poor air inlet design, its CAT and perhaps emissions-shy ECU mapping. But with my set-up it really is a strong engine.

 

Fully recommended!

Edited January 4, 2009 by jengis

[shalmaneser 26]

Hmmm, certainly food for thought for us 1.6 owners who have that 'more power' itch to scratch! Off to read your conversion thread now...!

[chalky143 0]

hello, Im debating what converstion to do to mine as i have an auto 205 1.9 gti. Does the 8v xsi fit in on the mounts still? its from a 1995 car, im asking because ive been offered one for 100 quid of my mate.

 

thankyou

leon

[Saveit 0]

Why pull a 1.9 GTI engine out to replace it with a 306 XSI engine? The Xsi engine is presumeable slower (less hp). Although jengis feels that his car is quicker now (which it is since it was a 1.6 before) i do not think that the xsi engine will be quicker than the 1.9 gti engine. 15 hp is quite a lot in such a little car as the 205 gti. And when you think about how much faster a 1.9 GTI is compared to a 1.6 GTI, it shows that the 15 horses makes a big difference when we are dealing with such small and lightweight cars. So this could be why jengis feels that his car i so quick. But i bet it wont be any faster than regular 1.9 gti's.

Edited January 4, 2009 by Saveit

[jengis 0]

15 hp is quite a lot in such a little car as the 205 gti. And when you think about how much faster a 1.9 GTI is compared to a 1.6 GTI, it shows that the 15 horses makes a big difference when we are dealing with such small and lightweight cars. So this could be why jengis feels that his car i so quick. But i bet it wont be any faster than regular 1.9 gti's.

 

 

I don't claim it to be exceptionally quick, just more than I was hoping for and certainly more than 123 BHP! (I have owned quicker cars and can tell if an engine is doing well or not). I was only expecting to match 1.9's really so I am happy with the result. Unfortunaly, like I said, I have not ever even had a ride in a 1.9.

 

I'm just reporting what I have actually found from actually doing the conversion. I searched and it seems there is nothing to say how the engine performs in a 205 on Jetronic management. I would like to see a standard 1.9 do 60-100 in 11 secs - thats all I'm saying. Suprised me more than anyone!

 

And before you say so many variables - you can't compare just by a stopwatch on the road - fair enough. I won't argue

[bensonmi 4 2 Cars]

sounds like a good swap,would be interesting to see what it would be like if you changed the cam at some point to compare, and to see what its like against a 1900 gti.

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

I would like to try the 1.6 GTi cam in it (apparently it has more lift than the 1.9)

 

Don't bother, they are nigh on the same, and I've measured both.

[chalky143 0]

clicky i know it is a different engine type, but it is still an xu, would this fit in as easy?

 

thankyou

leon

[jengis 0]

clicky i know it is a different engine type, but it is still an xu, would this fit in as easy?

 

thankyou

leon

 

 

Plenty of info on the XU10J4R if you search. Conversion-wise very similar to GTi-6 (and there are LOTS of folk on this forum who have done it). Inlet manifold may be a tight fit and cause problems. A great engine "out of the box" but easilly modified with GTi-6 (XU10J4RS) bits if you can source manifolds, cams or full head cheap enough. But for the price its good. 140+ BHP standard if running on a CAT-less exhaust - perhaps....

[chalky143 0]

Plenty of info on the XU10J4R if you search. Conversion-wise very similar to GTi-6 (and there are LOTS of folk on this forum who have done it). Inlet manifold may be a tight fit and cause problems. A great engine "out of the box" but easilly modified with GTi-6 (XU10J4RS) bits if you can source manifolds, cams or full head cheap enough. But for the price its good. 140+ BHP standard if running on a CAT-less exhaust - perhaps....

 

i shal get it, but just before i do, with it bieng 2000 reg, wont it be the newer engine? can anyone also tell me if the xu10j4r engine fits straight onto standard mounts or do i have to fiddle?

 

thankyou

leon

[jengis 0]

As welshpug said in the other thread - the drivers side mount will need to be from the donor car too. the gearbox and lower mounts will be from the 205. You won't have to modify the 205's mounting points on the car itself

Edited January 5, 2009 by jengis

[jengis 0]

Newer engine? If you mean EW then no, its not. EW's never fitted to 306's. Before you buy though, ask someone else more knowledgeable than me if they can say for sure thats its not the 1.8 all-alloy 16v engine thats being sold. Just in case.

[Richie-Van-GTi 72 2 Cars]

yes that is the xu10j4r for sale, can clearly see the steel block on the pictures. £199 buy it now seems a tad on the top end side of prices IMHO. These engines are very easy to find in pretty much ny scrapyard as they are the run of the mill 406 engine.

[chalky143 0]

well at least i know that they fit on the original mounts, erm does this apply for the 406 xu10 engines, fits on standard mounts but need a 306/405 drivers side mount?

 

thankyou

leon

[Richie-Van-GTi 72 2 Cars]

yes, any xu10j4r is the same engine, the 406 top mount arm ahs a large extension piece on though that incorporates a stabiliser. Just a simple bolt on bolt off job to swap though.

[GLPoomobile 958]

I can see another advantage to using the 2.0 8v. Does anyone know what insurance group the 306 Xsi is? Cos if it's lower than group 14 and you have the right insurance company, you should find it cheaper to insure than a 1.9 GTi.

 

Regarding the 1.6 v 1.9 comments, the difference in "speed" between the 2 is not significant, more an illusion created by the 1.9 being gruntier low down in the revs. If the OP feels that the 2.0 is quite a bit quicker than his 1.6, then perhaps it is significantly quicker than a 1.9 too. Izd never given it thought before, but it does seem like an ideal path for anyone not looking to go 16v.

[carbers205 1]

The 306 is gp12.

I have this engine in my 306 and I love it, but it is by no means great. In terms of tuning potential it is pretty rubbish, if people were changing engines I wouldnt recommend it over going 16v for instance.

It should be significantly cheaper to buy one of these engines of course, and as Jengis says, it will be quicker than a 1.6. Be interesting to get this one back to back with a 1.9!

 

Andy

[jengis 0]

The 306 is gp12.

I have this engine in my 306 and I love it, but it is by no means great. In terms of tuning potential it is pretty rubbish, if people were changing engines I wouldnt recommend it over going 16v for instance.

It should be significantly cheaper to buy one of these engines of course, and as Jengis says, it will be quicker than a 1.6. Be interesting to get this one back to back with a 1.9!

 

Andy

 

Fully agree, it can never even be close to any of the common 16v choices. I'd never have thought I would ever want to waste money by rolling roading a car just to test it, and never will TBH, but it would be nice to see the torque/power graph as it runs with the 205 inlet and management setup. My estimate is 135bhp with similar torque ...???

 

It really shouldn't be quicker than the 306 GTi-6 but side-by-side accellerating from 30mph (in 2nd and then through the gears changing at 6800rpm) the 205 pulls out bigger and bigger lead.

 

The main benefit is that its an easy and cheap swap, similar to 1.9 8v. I couldn't afford to have someone rebuild an engine and the cost of good Mi16/GTi6 engines (+associated conversion costs) is too much for me.

 

But I will clarify - its by no means an alternative to Mi16's as a conversion for outright power.

Edited January 7, 2009 by jengis

[carbers205 1]

I would be surprised if it were as high as 135, Im guessing you're running de-cat which would be worth a couple, but with the standard engine being 123 I doubt you'll see an extra 10 with the inlet and cam.

If you do get it roaded Id love to see the results, can do it for between £35 and 50 as far as I can gather, Im intrigued to do one myself though my engine spec is quite a bit different to yours.

[dazEmad 0]

I would put money on a 306 gti6 being quicker. Not at all saying your conversion has not been worth doing, it does sound much better than a stock 1.6 or a tired 1.9 engine. My 205 with S16 engine with uprated cam approx 160bhp was almost identical to a 306 gti6, only now with tb's and 181bhp is a bit faster. Im guessing a well sorted 1.9 8v would need at least 145 bhp to keep up with a 306 gti6.

[Anthony 1,003]

Interesting results from the OP

 

I was going to do this conversion myself a couple of years ago, except that I was going to use a hotter cam in it and a few other tweeks - only reason I didn't is that a rebuilt 1.9 bottom end came up for a price that I frankly couldn't refuse and I used my XU10 head on that instead. Good to hear from someone that's done it, and glad that you're happy with the results - certainly it's alot of "bang for buck" on a tired 1.6 GTi.

 

135hp from just losing the CAT, changing the inlet and management does seem a little optimistic, but I reckon that it'll be making close to 1.9 GTi book power (assuming it's a decent engine) and 10-15lbft more torque than a 1.9 (and remember that a 1.9 is already 20lbft higher than a 1.6!).

 

I would put money on a 306 gti6 being quicker. Not at all saying your conversion has not been worth doing, it does sound much better than a stock 1.6 or a tired 1.9 engine. My 205 with S16 engine with uprated cam approx 160bhp was almost identical to a 306 gti6, only now with tb's and 181bhp is a bit faster. Im guessing a well sorted 1.9 8v would need at least 145 bhp to keep up with a 306 gti6.

I've owned both 205 GTi's and 306 GTi-6's and 306's just are not quick cars - in my experience, a healthy 1.9 8v will easily enough keep pace upto a fair speed, and any 205 16v will just romp away. Even my old throttle bodied 306 GTi-6 was frankly underwhelming in a straight line.

 

I'd suggest that there was something amiss with your 205 S16 then if it's only about the same as a 306 GTi-6, or it's an exceptional example of a 306 that you're comparing it against - with 200-250kg less weight and similar power if should be a no brainer really so long as you can put the power down.

 

It wouldn't suprise me at all for a 205 2.0 8v to be able to keep pace with a 306 GTi-6 upto 60-70mph, down to power-weight if nothing else - 130hp and 900kg gives 144hp/tonne, and 167hp and 1200kg gives 139hp/tonne

[Saveit 0]

135 bhp from de-cat, inlet and cam over 123 bhp - dont believe it. If you could be tempted to put it on rolling road, i would be happy to bet on it being no more than 130 bhp Torque could be slightly higher than 1.9 since it is a 2.0.

 

And you keep comparing the 306 gti-6 and your 205 from 2 or 3 gear, and i believe you are right, your 205 could be faster when driving in 2 gear and flooring it since its lighter in weight and has a bit more torque than the 1.9 gti, and therefore could be faster than the 306 gti-6 when comparing them like you do. But when doing a standing start i do not believe that your 2.0 will be any faster than the 1.9 gti. I think there is a significant difference between the 1.6 gti and the 1.9 gti (and i have driving owned a couple of both as you can see in my signature).

 

And listen, i am not saying that your 2.0 conversion wasnt succesfull, cause i believe it is. And it is superb that you are happy with the results. But to put this conversion to the test, i think you should get the car rolled on a rolling road. Otherwise find someone with a healthy 1.9 gti and lets compare from standing start.

Edited January 9, 2009 by Saveit

[dazEmad 0]

Interesting results from the OP

 

I've owned both 205 GTi's and 306 GTi-6's and 306's just are not quick cars - in my experience, a healthy 1.9 8v will easily enough keep pace upto a fair speed, and any 205 16v will just romp away. Even my old throttle bodied 306 GTi-6 was frankly underwhelming in a straight line.

 

I'd suggest that there was something amiss with your 205 S16 then if it's only about the same as a 306 GTi-6, or it's an exceptional example of a 306 that you're comparing it against - with 200-250kg less weight and similar power if should be a no brainer really so long as you can put the power down.

Quote ----

 

Remember the top gear test old vs new 205 gti 1.9 vs 206 gti180 the 1.9 was way behind. There cant be much of a difference of speed between a 206 gti180 and 306 gti6. As for mine it has been timed 1/4 mile 15.25 93.50 mph and now 14.45 98 mph, it could well be that all three gti6's ive been in are over there standard bhp figure.

Edited January 9, 2009 by dazEmad

[SPGTi 2]

I can vouch that Daz's 205 is not slow by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Steve

[Anthony 1,003]

Remember the top gear test old vs new 205 gti 1.9 vs 206 gti180 the 1.9 was way behind. There cant be much of a difference of speed between a 206 gti180 and 306 gti6. As for mine it has been timed 1/4 mile 15.25 93.50 mph and now 14.45 98 mph, it could well be that all three gti6's ive been in are over there standard bhp figure.

I dunno about that - a 206 GTi180 is more powerful and a fair bit lighter than a 306 GTi-6 (177hp, 152lbft, and around 1100kg judging by a quick Google), and it's well known that Rich Treen's 205 wasn't the healthiest example (the headgasket failed a few days later from memory).

 

306 GTi-6 is approximately 120kg heavier and has 10hp less (all assuming book figures are accurate) than the 206 GTi180. That's alot of extra weight to be lugging around, particularly coupled with less power, and will of course have a significant effect on performance at lower speeds when power-weight is an important factor. Quick calculation suggests 161hp/tonne for the 206 GTi180, 137hp/tonne for the 306 GTi-6, and 142hp/tonne for the 205 1.9. Faster you go of course, the more outright power and aerodynamics become important and a GTi-6 will (and does in my experience) then pull away from a 205.

 

15.25 seconds isn't particularly quick 1/4 mile time in my option for a cammed 205 S16, although of course there's so many factors that could affect that time - I would have expected something closer to mid-14's at Santa Pod in good conditions judging by other 205 16v's that I've seen run there. Again, judging by Google, looks like 306 GTi-6's are around low-mid 16's for a comparison.

 

Anyway, it's getting a bit off topic...