[engine_work] 205 Supercharged And Turbocharged?!?

[wracing 19]

Well this is my first post, over winter im going to be rebuilding my 205 that ive just spent all of summer building. to give you a bit of back ground on where im at...

 

The car started life a little 1.1 tu engined 205 i know i know, my first mistake of many. but you cant turn down a car with no rust for £100.

 

Over the past three months I've collected part off the good old feebay and various other sources.

 

As it stands at the moment:

 

the 95% finished car, this was on the same night before the track day

dad helping me out

me worrying about what i've started

im doing a degree in electronic engineering, and still find these things the worst ever!!!

trying to spray. but so far i havent put any runs what so ever in the car.

• 1.9 xu9ja
  
• 4 to 1 manifold with a straight through exhaust, nice and loud
  
• be1 gearbox group N linkages.
  
• standard front 1.9 gti suspension.
  
• standard front 1.9 gti brakes.
  
• 1.9 radiator and oil cooler.
  
• 1.1 steering rack.
  
• 1.9 master cylinder and servo.
  
• 1.9 fuel tank.
  
• 1.9 fuel pump.
  
• 1.9 309 rear beam.
  
• 14" wheels running 185/60/14.
  
• 6 point custom weld in cage 48*4mm for the main hoop 42*3mm all other rails. i admit little bit heavier than the cds and t45 cages of today but is so strong and only cost me £125 and 10's hours to weld in.
  
• cobra bucket seats with 4 point harnesses.
  
• green very green!!
  

this is a very basic spec of what we have done to the 1.1 chassis. any how after completing the car only hours before the shake down track day we did it turned a 1.1 into something fast with a very small budget.

 

after a good day at the track, we had a few problems to repair.....

• a leaking gear box
  
  
• headbolt spacer vs gearbox. dont ask
  

so why rebuild the car, well im looking for a bit more speed and currently have a few parts kicking around in the garage:

• 2.0 S16 engine
  
  
• Eaton m45 supercharger. in the picture you can see me and friends son holding the charger. i've converted him into a petrol head, oops.
  
• garrett t32 turbocharger.
  
  
• 307 brakes.
  
  
• mega squirt fuel injection system
  

parts i need to add are:

• dimma kit
  
• forged internals
  
• new alloys
  
• rebuild kit for the rear beam
  
• poly bushes
  
• 2*charge coolers
  
• short steering rack
  
• and various other small bits
  

im always looking to do something different so we shall see what develops

my aim is to document as much as possible as i've used 205 forums so much i think its only fair.

ill post some more pictures of the parts tomorrow.

this is what the car looks like at the moment

 

what do you guys think stupid, impossible or just damn right fast

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

good luck

 

cyman on here runs a twin charged engine so it can be done.

 

take a peak at mine and madspikes project threads as well as were both running m45s, no turbos though

[M@tt 77]

i think cyman had to extend the front of his car by 8" or so in order to have enough room to fit everything in, so trying to fit both i image makes the complexity of the project 10 fold, go SC thats the way forward

[cyman 1 1 Cars]

It would be possible to get both the s/c and turbo under the standard bonnet.

The turbo installation fits easy under the bonnet.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

It would be possible to get both the s/c and turbo under the standard bonnet.

The turbo installation fits easy under the bonnet.

 

You could always concentrate on the S/C under the bonnet, and then wang the turbo at the back in the spare wheel area. Don't laugh, it's been done; check out Practical Performance Car.

[cyman 1 1 Cars]

Sorry, I ment to say that the s/c and turbo would all fit without extending the front end.

although it would probaly mean some special made to measure rads/intercooler ect, ect.

[wracing 19]

cyman: what im planning to do is place the rad in the boot. its done on bangers all the time when they tank them. i admit little more weight with the extra water but i've figured it out to be around 7.5kilos. as far as the inter coolers are concerned im going to use the charge cooler type so i can again rear mount the rads with out having to have massively long boost pipes the oil cooler will be mounted where the washer bottle used to be and a duct on the bonnet. getting rid of some of the extra weight of the conversion and moving it to the rear should help weight distribution.

 

DrSarty: its a great idea but i don't like the idea of an electric oil scavenge pump and i want to keep everything hot in the engine bay ive got a t32 and i think going for remote mount will need something small like a t25-28 as the heat has left most of the exhaust gasses. its something to keep in mind when i run out of space

 

allanallen: thanks mate, im going to need it the girlfriend said ive bitten off more than i can chew..... what does she know

 

M@tt: wouldn't extending the front mess up the handling i thought its best that the weight is as close to the middle of the car?

 

dont laugh i know its an 8valve but they are the size size

• orange: supercharger
  
• light blue: mid pressure charge cooler
  
• pink: mid pressure piping
  
• light purple: high pressure piping and cooler
  
• green: low pressure piping and filters
  
• red: turbo charger i know i drew the pipes the wrong way round
  
• purple: electronics(as way away from heat as possible as im not using automotive grade components)
  
• blue: oil cooler and filter
  
• yellow: intake manifold
  
• brown: exhaust piping
  

not mine but a picture is 1000 words and the battery is in the boot

 

right on to my second post, its great to see that people are interested. some good ideas come out already.

 

today i've started to strip my engine, it seams in great nick just needs a good clean after all those road miles. first job i think is to make the exhaust manifold i've already started the supercharger brackets but im going to have to start again because ive decide to change position.

while i've been working away my computer has been to, engine simulation don't worry not the rubbish you normally see, its made by lotus and its really good i drew my 1.9 8v and it calculated the power curves exactly. you even enter the port dimensions, camshaft profile, compressor efficiency map, running the turbo boosting(super charger eff map not programmed in it take so long ) to 21psi above absolute not atmosphere i was getting 348hp and massive torque. i have no chance of reaching this figure atm as this was with 100% eff inter coolers but once ive got all the variables dialled in and the fuel map done i can get some good plenum designs done and i guess the con rods are the limit

how to lower a fiat dad wont be happy.

how to get an engine out of a fiat.....pick it up....stupid i know but i don't have an engine crane

coil on plug, proper ignition the best way to stop detonation

this is how things look at the moment nice and golden with no manifolds ready to start some real work

Don't rebuild gearboxes it will give you nightmares. any how i've done and it works. tools needed 13mm,10mm,32mm sockets, punch and a copper mallet, oh and some moles i was well impressed

 

is there a manifold that i can bolt directly on to this head with short runners?? i don't like the long mi16 runners i know they are there for torque but they are just to long for this engine build

 

thanks in advance

[tom_m 0]

lynx power do a supercarger kit for the gti6 (take a look at Garry and Tidy Pug's project threads) and in it is a super short runner inlet manifold. you might be able to pick one up without having to buy the whole kit.

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

take a look at my setup, http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?s...c=95503&hl= i'm sure with a similar lay out using an air to air intercooler you could avoid the complication of moving the rad into the boot.

Edited November 7, 2008 by allanallen

[cyman 1 1 Cars]

It's looking good. Don't forget to maximise the bulkhead space with regard to the turbo charger and It's plumbing ( exhaust ).

There is a lot of room you can use on the nearside foot well.

If you need any photo's of what I have done just ask.

[wracing 19]

Right update time.

 

I promised my self that I was going to update the tread every step of the way....but I got lazy, any how vie made some good progress. I have all the parts needed for the build, so hopefully no more expenditure required the deadline is the 17/18th of April Markham track day the first outing of my season.

 

I’ve got pictures of most of the engine work but not much of the body work as it too dark by the time I finish work, I think I’ve become nocturnal!

 

Bodywork to do

 

Dimma wings fitted and mocked up. Repair work need on driver’s side.

Dimma bumper fitted and mocked up. Mounting arms to be fibreglasses in for strength.

Dimma rear quarters to be fitted.

Dimma rear bumper fitted and mocked up.

 

Drivers side inner wing need attention.

Passenger side headlight mounting need removing of fit air intake

 

Passenger side strut top plate need replacing

 

Front brace need fitting

Engine removal and install

 

Brake lines to be fitted inside the car

Fuel lines need routing through the car.

Fuel tank removal

Water lines for rear radiator

New loom installed

Battery box fitting

Windscreen removal

 

Roll cage finishing

 

PAINT

 

engine work left.

 

as this is the first development build I’ve decided to go with a turbo to get the maps for the injection system and plumb the supercharger in next rebuild....(3months )

 

Still to do on the engine.

 

Re-clean pistons

Fit cylinder head

Time engine

Redesign water system

Redesign oil system (hoses)

 

Fit manifolds

Fit fuel rail

Fit turbo up pipe (see below)

Weld turbo flange

Weld turbo downpipe

Plumb boost pipes

Fit new loom

Fit COP

Fit gear box and clutch

 

Then cut hole on bulkhead

 

Fit engine into little 205

 

 

work done already

 

Engine rebuilt internals quick cleaned and new bearings fitted

Block honed, but I still need to deck the block will do this tomorrow.

 

Up pipe made

 

Electronics made

 

Looms made

 

Fuel tank made

 

Radiator brackets made

 

Battery box made

 

Custom manifold with 8 individual runners made but not using this till I can get it HPC'ed

 

pictures

 

First inspection after small amounts of carbon removal

 

Coils and drivers for the ignition

 

I’m using the S16 fuel rail as I can get a better pressure regulator for in and it distributes the fuel better. 300cc injectors to be fitted.

 

Inlet manifold of an MI16 in not going to shorten it at the moment.

 

This is a temporary creation, having said that the gas heat retention and the flow restriction models very well on solid works. It may be for keeping

 

I will never beat the 0-52 time for this little thing its fast!!

 

Head during rebuild time, I had to put the top on as my brother decided to cut some of his hair off and post it behind the cams. I could have killed him!!!!

 

See the straight edge on this tool, when removing head bolts it had and 90degree twist on the shaft. They where tight, little more that 70ft/lb + 160degrees!!

 

I was going to use a throttle of a ford v6 then changed my mind as this little kiddie will do, better driveability instead on off huge butterflies

 

Timing marks with gloss hehehehe (don’t try this at home it runs)

 

http://photos-c.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-...1274426_260.jpg

Vac pump needed for brakes under heal and toe conditions!!

 

http://photos-f.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-...274429_1443.jpg

Changed turbo to a td05, nice second-hand example took me a week to rebuild, had to edit the thrust bearing (picture before rebuild)

Don’t buy rebuild kits from Japan!!

 

http://photos-h.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-...274431_2252.jpg

1.65mm gasket bolts and inlet and exhaust. 18pounds all in and Unipart. What is the world coming to!!

 

http://photos-b.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-...274433_3109.jpg

The devil in this build I keep telling my self jus wait one at a time!!

 

 

Any how the work goes on im looking to get the engine finished by this weekend and the bodywork done in a fortnight.

 

 

If I’m doing something silly please point it out!

 

more pictures to follow

 

 

Thanks

 

James

[wracing 19]

well after losing my job things slowed down. new job started and im making progress again!!

 

 

Introduction

Today, in the world of tuning, it is very easy to replace standard parts with aftermarket components. There are several reasons for this whether it be for aesthetics, road tuning or to develop a high performance car.

With the introduction of complex electronics and computer aided manufacturing the cost of ‘modifying’ a vehicle has spiraled, for instance previously, you could improve on a production cylinder head by simply smoothing the port profiles and removing flash marks. Technology has advanced to a point where the cylinder head is not the immediate restriction and can quite easily support high power outputs than standard

 

Objective

The purpose of this project is to remanufacture and improve on existing designs to reach a power output of a group B rally car namely the Peugeot 205 T16 (440HP Flywheel) with minimal cost.

 

Solution

To reach this goal it will require a large amount of development - the engine that will be used to generate the final output power will be a Peugeot S16 1998CC DOHC 4v/Cyl. The components to build this engine to specification required will be a considerable portion of the project budget; therefore it will be necessary to test the proposed system on a cheaper engine.

The engine that will be used for system development is a Peugeot GTI 1905CC SOHC 2v/Cyl; this engine will be rebuilt back to factory standard. Once rebuilt the power plant will be turbocharged and act as a test bed

The final build engine will inherit the developed technology of the above.

 

Engine One Specification:

The following details the specification to which the test bed engine shall be built to:

• 1905CC wet liner bore 83 stroke 88

• 2V/cyl

• Compression ratio: 9.6:1

• 290 degree custom cam shaft

• Log type exhaust manifold

• Garret TB25 Turbo 0.48A/R

• Large front mounted intercooler

• Fully programmable injection and ignition

The specification of this engine has not been fully defined to allow ongoing development.

 

Engine Two Specification:

The following details the specification to which the test bed engine shall be built to:

• 1998CC wet liner bore 86 stroke 86.

• 4V/cyl.

• Compression ratio: 9:1.

• Billet camshafts with minimal overlap and high lift.

• Fully ported head, larger inlet valves.

• Tubular exhaust Manifold.

• Garret T3571R Turbo 0.82A/R sintered shaft.

• Eaton M45 supercharger

• Large front mounted intercooler with water injection.

• Fully programmable injection and ignition.

• 4 throttle bodies.

• Nitrous oxide Anti Lag.

The specification of this engine has not been fully defined as it will inherit engine one properties

 

Engine One Development:

To reduce cost the engine was built back to the factory standards with all new bearings, seals and gaskets. Once the engine had been rebuild the combustion chambers where modified by removing small amounts of material to match the individual volumes. The engine in question is of a very good design already and without fitting larger valves and extensive flow bench testing not many gains could be made.

Fortunately Peugeot turbocharged one of their later engines namely the 406 2.0 Sri. This engine used the same cylinder head as the development engine. This saved a great amount of time and money as a suitable manifold was already in circulation and easily available in breakers yard. For a cost point of view the turbocharger from the 406 2.0 Sri was utilized also, the turbo was relatively well matched to the development engine and rebuild components where readily available.

Once the basic components had been sourced fabrication could begin, the turbocharger and manifold were mainly bolt on parts but due to the different designs of engine blocks custom oil and water feeds had to be fabricated. The turbocharger oil return posed an issue as there was no suitable point to drill into the alloy block due to the wet liner design utilized by Peugeot. Unfortunately the only way to over come this issue was to place the return directly into the sump pan, although unorthodox, this solution worked well.

Intake piping filled most of the engine bay; mandrel bends where used where necessary but to reduce cost bends were fabricated from cutting tubular steel and butt welding at an angle. Many people commented on the inefficiency of this design but practical results and computer simulation do not agree with the general consensus, furthermore the fabricated bends helped disrupt laminar flow and improve the heat transfer efficiency, mandrel bends were used where turbulence had to be kept to a minimum to avoid cavitations e.g. Compressor inlet and pre throttle body inlet.

The waste gate on the turbocharger allowed control from 4.25Psi of ‘boost’ to the maximum the turbo could safely produce; the waste gate was controlled by the ECU using a simple 3way valve controlled by a solenoid. To protect the compressor from stall situations a blow off valve was fitted, this valve is simply controlled by the negative pressure in the intake manifold opening the valve and allowing compressed intake charge to escape to atmosphere. Compressed charge temperatures were managed using a large front mount intercooler. Theoretically this intercooler was too large for the intended application, however it allowed a high static compression ratio as charge temps where reduced below ambient at speed. Data logs show an ambient air temp of 17 degrees Celsius and on ‘boost’ intake temps show 12 degrees Celsius. To manage the increased bearing load the 7 row oil cooler was replaced with 25 row oil cooler.

 

 

 

The Standard Bosch engine management used analogue comparators to devise the necessary injector pulse width. The standard system relied on a mass air flow sensor and an air temperature sensor, while in an OE environment the mass air flow sensor is a great way to measure engine load it places a bottle neck too great for high performance uses. The old system was replaced with a fully programmable ECU that allowed control over the whole engine (Ignition and fuel). The system used ‘MegaSquirt’ (the only open source DIY system in the market). Due to the fact the ECU has been developed within an open forum it allowed modification and fault diagnosis that would not be possible with other ECUS ‘Motec, etc, etc’. The original loom from the car was adapted and modified to use manifold air pressure as load sensor, also added to the loom were provisions for a wideband lambda sensor along with it associated control and the boost control solenoid.

Once the loom was built it was tested in the car. Relying on sound and smell of the exhaust gas the engine was coaxed into life, unfortunately I could not use the lambda senor below 1500rpm as the exhaust gas temperature was not sufficient to provide a stable reading. The engine quickly settled into a stable idle at 1250rpm with the necessary adjustment to the VE tables within the ECU. Due to the fact the engine is been developed for race use the cold start and associated enrichments were not set up. Due to the cost associated with a rolling road it was decided that I would set that car up relying on the lambda sensor and experience alone. A basic power run was executed with the engine unloaded, the data logging software allowed to visualize the engines requirement and volumetric efficiencies from this data log a fueling map was extrapolated. Due to the fact the car was not road legal all other setup would have to be completed trackside. The ignition map was derived from the standard ignition advance curve, to prevent detention a knock senor was attached to the block and with every knock event the ignition was retarded by half a degree.

Trackside is where most of the setup took place I took the car on some gentle runs with the data logger running; I was amazed how close the calculated fueling map was to the actual requirement of the engine. For the first day I ran the car on 4.25psi of boost with the fueling map below.

 

Through the gears the car was amazingly quick 1st, 2nd and 3rd it was difficult to change quick enough unfortunately 4th and 5th didn’t match the performance of the previous gears after reviewing the data logs it indicated that the car was running lean in these load sights. I modified the fueling table show below:

 

After this modification the car pulled up to the rev limiter in all gears, I reached a top speed at 132mph @6500 rpm upon depressing the accelerator the car continued to accelerate before the hard ignition cut rev limiter started. Second day I increased to boost levels for even more fun. The engine took it in its stride and was one of the only cars left running at the end of the two day event.

Unfortunately the car has not had a power run on a rolling road so power figures are undefined at the moment, but to put things into perspective I had some very strange looks from the drivers of several cars including a Porsche Carrera S and a number of ‘high performance cars’ while I went passed them at speed, only to be overtaken again on the straights where I reached my maximum velocity.

 

Engine Two Development:

Since modification on the development engine has ended in a very successful engine that is more that a match for a modern day sports car, this project is designed to produce an engine with the power output of a group B rally car. The method of ‘build it and see’ will have to be a little more refined to prevent excess expenditure.

Currently the engine is about to start the process of being chemically cleaned. After inspection the engine is in extremely good condition and will require minimal machining processes to be carried out on it.

Before assembly of the engine it has been necessary to design the external components. One of the main components in question is the exhaust manifold, with large space restrictions, it the overall design has to be generated to allow visualization of the finished product. Below is the current design of the manifold, although the runners of the manifold are not matched, pulses are delivered at equal intervals allowing maximum energy to be transmitted to the turbocharger.

 

 

 

The next stage of the project will be fabrication and engine assembly once the engine has been ‘run in’ on a test bed, it will then installed in the car.

 

 

wordy i know but explains most things i think pictures coming!!

 

 

james

[All Praise The GTI 3]

sounds technical but very good mate

i cant wait to get my turbo sorted.

ive basically got my gti6 track car ready to test run again,if alls good il get it mot'd asap then il be looking to get my bodies on

[wracing 19]

sounds technical but very good mate

i cant wait to get my turbo sorted.

ive basically got my gti6 track car ready to test run again,if alls good il get it mot'd asap then il be looking to get my bodies on

 

those bodies are nice im hoping to get that engine mount done sunday im gona make myself one as its a great idea!

 

i should be able to make you a 6 loom but really im going to need a 'good' loom to start with so i can get all the lengths right

 

after thinking about it im not very confident about the turbo ill try though

 

 

 

 

 

 

[All Praise The GTI 3]

i actually felt brave the other day was doing some 'fabriction' (pro-bodging) a bracket to lower my rad and while i was at it extended another lower mount i had. dont think my welding will last long(was using a dodgy arc welder) but i just did it to check clearances,would be great if you can fix mine for me tho

yours looks like a beast id love to see it and have a passenger ride sometime,next marham maybe?

well ive got a standard 6 loom and a gti one and once ive checked my engines stil ok il remove the loom and see if you can make one up for the megasquirt for me

ive got to try get that pulley changed on the turbo and il see if its any better,if not its getting stripped and sold which will be gutting to say the least,its been nothing but bad luck and a moneypitt for over a yr now

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Really excellent work Wracing. From the pics you look mighty young and I would say if that's true, you have wisdom and a considered approach beyond your years.

 

I like the combination of modelling, testing and then a bit of suck it and see.

 

Will watch this one with great interest.

[Lan 24 1 Cars]

fantastic work mate this is a epic project watching with interest, i like that "sleeper" steering wheel lol

[wracing 19]

I love that steering wheel its great 1.1 base model its going though as I’m halfway through building my self a diy tft dash built around a omp wheel so I can get rid of all the dash extra weight!!

 

thanks DrS I’m only 19 hence why a few things aren’t as tidy as I would like, one down side with been young is that people don’t take your view seriously even if you’ve spent hours…. days researching, and testing them but I guess its to be expected.

 

I’m going to pick up the last of the engine bits now I have finally decided on what I’m going to use this weekend and should have the engine built.

 

I do find it hard to post as you can see there are some quite large jumps in time hopefully I will get it by the time I finish the car!

 

The car is getting built to a full race spec and then we are driving it round Europe for charity so the pressure is on to get it finished!

 

Wish me luck!!

[Luca 1]

hey mate this sounds like an awesome project but how are you going to get the power onto the road? as you would know the 205T16 had 4 wheel drive...

[wracing 19]

the plan is to use a plate diff of some sorts and ive got some 15"x9" compmotive rims on order ( ML1590 in black) with some careful suspension setup i think we can get most of the power down.

 

by using a combination of antilag, and boost control i hope to produce a smooth power curve.

 

at the moment i'm running 205 tyre and coilovers with std diff and have large amount of traction issues! and thats with a 1.9 turbo

 

also i have vss sensor attached to each wheel a bit like an abs pickup this is connected to megasquirt for traction control purposes, by retarding the ignition timing this allows me to keep the throttle open but control slip.

 

james

 

 

hey mate this sounds like an awesome project but how are you going to get the power onto the road? as you would know the 205T16 had 4 wheel drive...

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

the plan is to use a plate diff of some sorts and ive got some 15"x9" compmotive rims on order ( ML1590 in black) with some careful suspension setup i think we can get most of the power down.

 

by using a combination of antilag, and boost control i hope to produce a smooth power curve.

 

at the moment i'm running 205 tyre and coilovers with std diff and have large amount of traction issues! and thats with a 1.9 turbo

 

also i have vss sensor attached to each wheel a bit like an abs pickup this is connected to megasquirt for traction control purposes, by retarding the ignition timing this allows me to keep the throttle open but control slip.

 

james

 

sorry to but in but is your inbox full james?

[wracing 19]

Well progress has been slow the design will always take the longest getting everything spot on before I try and build.

 

After running some numbers I’ve figured that with out adding silly amounts of steel the 205 chassis will not handle any real power. Fwd isn’t really ideal anyway so I have decided to complicate this project further by ditching the skip and building a space frame to fit inside a 205 fibreglass shell.

 

I know I’m crazy but I want something unique.

 

With the engine in the rear it allows me to play with double wishbones and some complex suspension which will either kill me and my co driver, or handle like a beast!

 

I have a year to complete the space frame get it through a sva and mot....all for charity and euro trip 2010!

 

 

This picture shows the front double wishbone setup and the inboard coilovers. Trying to keep that centre of gravity low minus roll cage the highest chassis rail is 393mm off the floor

 

 

Hopefully I will finish by next weekend I cant wait to start building this

 

Wish me luck

 

 

James

[wracing 19]

More work tonight you don’t realise how small the 205 is until you start trying to redesign the wheel.

 

My girlfriend has branded this the mobile coffin so hopefully it isn’t a sign of things to come!

 

Retaining the standard wheelbase but enlarging the track to fill the t16 kit should work nicely and avoid silly offsets.

 

Currently it all ways in a 73kg I’m hoping we can make the chassis once triangulated for 150kg tops.

 

I’m designing it with 1"x1" box with a 3.2mm wall but I’m going to drop to 2.5mm wall as the stiffness is silly with no triangulation!

 

 

James

[oonip 4]

looking awsome man, what grade steel you planning to use for the frame? - random question i know!

[EdCherry 34 1 Cars]

Looking good! PM heading your way.