2300cc 16v Build

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Ok so i need alot of help getting together the shopping list for what i need to build this engine, im a novice at block building but am very technically minded so im sure i can do it.

 

the plan is a 2283cc XU10 block with 306 XSi head on Twin 45 webers

 

I have the XU10J2 block ready to be stripped, im going for a 87mm bore with the 96mm crank from the 406 2.2 TDi to give the 2283cc.

 

But do i need to get it all done, ie the technical bits like piston rings, gudgeon pins, main bearings, big end bearing, crank seals, 16v crank spray bars as its a 8v block (do i need these) i have no idea what size or where to source these parts from so your help would be greatly appreciated

 

so far i can come up with what i know or have been told already:

 

XU10J2 block

XU10J2/XU9J2 engine mounts

96mm 406 2.2 TDi crank

87mm forged 16v hig comp pistons

forged rods (what size?)

306 XSi 16v Head

GTi-6 Cams (for now)

GTi-6 Exhaust mani

 

I mean these are the main bits i know i need but i have no idea with the technical bits to actually put this together, please help!! i have many questions

 

thanx in advance and im looking forward to a brilliant project!!

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

Basicly you first need to decide the compression ratio you wanna use.

Then you decide squish-distance. 1mm should be safe and give ok squish.

 

Assuming 1.3mm thick headgasket you know you want the pistons to sit 1.3 - 1 = 0.3mm above deck of the block @TDC.

 

So you need to get pistons with desired dish to give the compression you want, at the same time taking into account they will sit 0.3mm above deck at TDC (this depends on headgasket thickness).

 

After you've got that correct it's just a matter of calculating centre-centre between small and big end on the rods by using distance from crank centerline to block deck, crank-radius and piston height (pin center to piston top).

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Whats the highest cr can i safely run with the 16v head? 12.1 might be good but thats jus me pluckin figures out of my limited experience! Does is depend on what cam an followers/springs i run in the head?

[gizzmo 3 1 Cars]

contact matt at qep forum sponsor, he built and supplied all the the pistons and machine work that was required for my 2.2 project the service was excellent sourcing the build materials is where the problem starts, it tends to be all the little things so from my experience go for a whole engine including all the ancillaries what you dont need sell. you would also be able to conpare the cranks if you where unsure about the 96mm,and budget for gearbox inspection and possible slip dif my rough budget so far head 800, engine, 2500, gearbox, 1000, any way good luck with the build

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Yeh ive got the whole xu10j2 engine still in the 306 so that will give me hoses etc like you said, unless im lucky enough to find a xu10j4 on the island somewhere its gonna be too expensive for me to source the whole engine and get it shipped to me in guernsey just for the head!

 

ill definitely give matt a call, ive dealt with him before and have found him a little hard to keep up with when he gets technical but very very informative and helpful!

[gizzmo 3 1 Cars]

my build used the early 1.9 head

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

What the mi16 1.9 head?

 

what did you use internally and what cc did u get?

 

what power outputs have you got?

[kyepan 291]

Am I correct in thinking that you've not built an engine before.. If that is correct, considering you're spending so much on the bits, is it worth the risk of cocking it up due to lack of experience by making a silly mistake on assembly.

 

Dad helped me strip and rebuild an old 850 mini engine for a laugh, there is much more to it than meets the eye. And the difference between throwing the bits together and making it sing is something that only a good few years of experience and expensive mistakes can give you. I was making mistakes left right and centre, putting things on the wrong way round, tightening things up too much, fumbling precise things.. etc etc.. you get the picture.

 

We're planning to rebuild a standard 1.9 MI for my car next... and actually use it.

 

then... perhaps something more exotic.

 

If you're one of these engineering genius's that understands everything to put it together first time perfectly, fair enough. But if your just a normal chap doing an office job. It might be worth factoring in the build cost. It could be less than you think, both in terms of hassle in the long run and cost.

 

Ps... how come you're using carbs? surely that's putting the engine at a disadvantage?

 

cheers

 

J

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

I do have some good engine builders that can definitely help me along the way, yeh im sure im gonna come across problems etc that i cant do myself, ill make sure everythin is checked while its goin together, plans could change anyway, ill leave the boring of the block the last thing i sort so if down the line i feel i am in over my head then could always send all the parts i have gathered ready for the build to someone who can build it professionally in the uk, we'll see how i go thou, ie strip the block i have an see what i think!

 

all i wanna do now is get a full shoppin list together of everything i need for the whole build so i can start gathering it all together an spread out the cost

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Good luck with everything chief.

 

I would agree with Justin on one thing and also suggest something else. Buying new parts and stock piling shiny bits is great fun; I know, and most of us on the forum know too. But it's often just an excuse for not getting stuck into building the damn thing.

 

I would advise you stop buying the bits that can be fitted later, e.g. hoses, and start from the ground up, only buying the bits you need, such as the block, crank, pistons rings...la de da...i.e. the key internals. Start the build, getting the boring and honing and test assembling done using the money you have, before you've frittered it away on an awesome sticker for your strutbrace .

 

Seriously. A shiny stockpile can be acquired by anyone. Buy phase one and build it; you'll progress and learn quicker.

 

Secondly carbs seem a bit daft to me too. Even Miles suggests all carbs should be collected and melted down. Throttle bodies are a lot simpler, more reliable (i.e. less to go wrong), easier to manage with an after market ECU and I would suggest maybe more economical too. Baz has a set for sale on here with an ECU too if you're really in the mood for spending. But going by my earlier suggestion I'd leave it and invest on getting the engine actually built.

 

Keep your eyes out for bargains though.

Edited October 2, 2008 by DrSarty

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

The reason im tryin to do it like i am, stock piling, is because i cant afford the massively expensive items like the pistons and rods at least until next june, yeh i know a shocker but this is a long term project as my funds are very tight with commitments my house has over the winter ie installing a whole new central heating system at 3500 and currently redecorating! So my plan was to get all the smaller and cheaper parts over the coming months ready so that when i can afford the pistons/rods ill then have everythin else ready to go to start building from start to finish an can really get stuck in without having to source more parts half way throu! Does that make any sense?

 

i already have the xu10j2 block so thats a starting point for me to strip it completely, get it tested and checked an cleaned up and painted ready

 

a very large chunk of my funds over the winter will be goin on new slicks by the way so thats like 850 for Avons!

 

what do you think?

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Sorry forgot about the carbs, yes i know they are rubbish especially for me as i have no rolling road to test set ups on, phase 1 is build 2.3 block an covert to 16v, phase 2 is port polish and cams for 16v head, phase 3 throttle bodies on management

Edited October 2, 2008 by wardy18

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

So what cr should i aim for? I wanna get the most out of the engine but i want it to be reliable too!

 

and what do i do about oil pump and crank spray bars etc, i dont think the xu10j2 block that i have has them so ive been told but the xu10j4 does, are they needed or am i talkin rubbish

[paapster 0]

Good luck with your project.

 

It's better to find a block witch has the crank spray bars, because you're going to build a engine with more power then normal. So your expect also more of your internal components. These oil bars cool down these components and give them extra lubrication at important places.

 

I should consider this and if I was in your shoes I would by one.

 

 

Volkert

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

I assume then from what your saying that these spray bars cant be fitted from the j4 block into the j2 block?

 

if this is the case and if not having these in the block put the build at risk then ill need to source this block, i must say it might work out better anyway as i need a 2ltr xsi 16v head anyway so i can source the whole engine!

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Have read up a little more and gettin alot more of an idea now on building the block and think im definitely capable of it with the help of Matt from QEP, he advised to go with the gti6 engine as the head is much better straight out the box and would compliment a higher capacity engine better! Also i can either go with a 92mm crank which will fit straight in the block no probs with the gti6 or s16 rods and forged pistons he has off the shelf, this would give 2188cc or i can go the more adventurous route with the 96mm crank and custom made pistons (not sure on rods, may need to be custom too) but this means i will need to get the bottom of the bores machined so that the ultra long stroke crank clears, this causes problems for me as on guernsey i haven't got a machinist that i know of that could do this to as high standard as i could get in the uk which would send the budget sky high. But this route would give me 2283cc with 87mm (more reliable than 88mm) bore!

 

either way i need to source the gti6 engine and strip it down teaching myself where everythin goes and how it goes together, i will then decide on the crank route to go so i promise ill stop with the threads and annoyin you guys for answers lol

 

thanx for your help and im lookin forward gettin this build goin

[Dj_mini 7]

Iv got a 92mm crank that i bought for my engine but didnt realise sandy had already had one prepared ready so i no longer need it. Drop me a pm if your interested in it.

Cheers Dan

[Doof 11]

As for CR i'd be reluctant to go for massive high CR as A Graham Bell states that often people lose power because they end up having to wind the ignition timing back to stop detonation. I've ended up going for low 11's as i also didn't want to be forced to run on optimax only.

[kyepan 291]

Have read up a little more and gettin alot more of an idea now on building the block and think im definitely capable of it with the help of Matt from QEP, he advised to go with the gti6 engine as the head is much better straight out the box and would compliment a higher capacity engine better! Also i can either go with a 92mm crank which will fit straight in the block no probs with the gti6 or s16 rods and forged pistons he has off the shelf, this would give 2188cc or i can go the more adventurous route with the 96mm crank and custom made pistons (not sure on rods, may need to be custom too) but this means i will need to get the bottom of the bores machined so that the ultra long stroke crank clears, this causes problems for me as on guernsey i haven't got a machinist that i know of that could do this to as high standard as i could get in the uk which would send the budget sky high. But this route would give me 2283cc with 87mm (more reliable than 88mm) bore!

 

either way i need to source the gti6 engine and strip it down teaching myself where everythin goes and how it goes together, i will then decide on the crank route to go so i promise ill stop with the threads and annoyin you guys for answers lol

 

thanx for your help and im lookin forward gettin this build goin

good stuff sounds like you're making progress. this should be interesting.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

just a quick update, ill be ordering the 96mm crank tomorrow and am definitely going down this route, the block only needs minor grinding to allow the rods to clear the bottom of the bore due to the extra long stroke!! pistons will be custom as the Compression Height needs to allow for the extra stroke and also deep valve pockets to allow for the duration at tdc

 

still need to source the gti6 engine

[projectpug 0]

Sounds very interesting and should be a really powerful beast when done. Do you think its worth all the extra effort/cash to go from the 2.2 to 2.3? What are the gains? Wouldnt the extra long stroke be less reliable too?

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

to be honest from chatting to Matt at QEP the cost from 2.2 to 2.3 isnt a mssive hike, the 2.2 conversion would still mean sourcing the 92mm crank and off the shelf custom pistons from QEP running standard rods but the only difference with the 2.3 conv is gettin the pistons made to my spec with a lower compression height and sourcing a 96mm crank (already sourced) instead of the 92mm, still standard rods

 

gains would be alot more torque and at a lower rev range so the engine doesnt need to be screamed to get peak power and is ideal for hillclimbing as i need a torquey motor to drive me out the slow corners

 

reliability didnt seem an issue when chatting with Matt as ill be sticking to 87mm bore

[SurGie 54]

to be honest from chatting to Matt at QEP the cost from 2.2 to 2.3 isnt a mssive hike, the 2.2 conversion would still mean sourcing the 92mm crank and off the shelf custom pistons from QEP running standard rods but the only difference with the 2.3 conv is gettin the pistons made to my spec with a lower compression height and sourcing a 96mm crank (already sourced) instead of the 92mm, still standard rods

 

gains would be alot more torque and at a lower rev range so the engine doesnt need to be screamed to get peak power and is ideal for hillclimbing as i need a torquey motor to drive me out the slow corners

 

reliability didnt seem an issue when chatting with Matt as ill be sticking to 87mm bore

 

 

I was told that QEP has closed down and not building any more engine's.

When did you speak to him?

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Matt is only supplying me the parts and doin the head work, not actually building the engine itself, i have spoken to him over the last few days and have had no hints he's closed or closing

[projectpug 0]

Sounds good Wardy if its not much more cash then might as well go for it. Have you any idea what bhp/torque your aiming for/estimating/want?