Tracking Adjustments

[GLPoomobile 958]

Was just thinking about this the other day.

 

I always assumed that to adjust the tracking, a garage would loosen the TRE nut, then unbolt it from the hub, wind the TRE in or out, reconnect it to the hub and do the nut back up, then check the alignment again.

 

But then I remembered that the track rod can rotate on it's balljoint, and knowing that most places want to take shortcuts wherever possible, I'm wondering if it would actually be common practice to leave the leave the TRE in place, but loosen the nut and then twist the track rod to wind the TRE in or out as necessary.

 

What do you think?

[Anthony 1,003]

You loosen the locknut on the TRE threads, and then turn the actual trackrod itself

 

No need to disconnect the TRE from the hub.

[welshpug 1,657]

Loosen locknut, turn the trackrod (the trackrod rotates on its inner joint) lock trackrod back in place with locknut,. that's how it was designed to be done

 

 

the problem you get is when people adjust one trackrod alone to achieve the correct toe setting, and not both.

 

this is bad practice, as not only does it place the steering wheel off-centre, it messes up the steering geometry and Ackerman angles (I think I spelt that right ) particularly important on pugs and Citroen's where they are quite sensitive to changes in steering angles, you'll get a lot more bumpsteer especially if lowered and stiffened.

[RossD 44]

No need to disconnect the TRE, as the track rod itself can be turned like you say. Its more accurate to do it that way for fine adjustments.

 

I've never seen a garage disconnect the TRE whenever they did tracking for me, before I got my own kit!

[Stu 18]

As above, i tend to remove the outer boot clip/cable tie before i go as in the past ive ended up with a twisted boot due to the monkeys not noticing what was going on.

[GLPoomobile 958]

Well that explains my suspicions then.

 

I had to replace both rack boots on mine as they were torn. Well, I say torn, but one of them looked like Sweeney Todd had fitted them!

 

I couldn't think how it had passed the previous test like this, as damage like that wouldn't have happened in the few thousand miles since. Then I remembered that Billy (previous owner) had run over a log in the road just before I bought the car, which had taken out a mud flap and ripped the middle hanger off the exhaust leaving a big hole!

 

 

So he obviously had to get the tracking done. And they obviously didn't loosen the clips on the boots. Resulting in 2 completely mullered boots! (I'm actually surprised they did both sides, although not surprised to find they were unequal lengths.)

[Banjo 1]

When you hit a bump hole or what ever and it knocks the tracking out how does that happen? where is the give?

[KRISKARRERA 2 1 Cars]

And how do they know if the steering rack is in a dead midway position when they do your tracking?

My steering wheel is off slightly and I'm not sure if that's because it wasn't put back straight of if it's because some numpty adjusted the tracking wrongly.

I guess one way to find out would be to see if there's an even number of threads at each end.

[GLPoomobile 958]

Regarding steering wheel position, think how many times in it's lifetime your car has had the tracking adjusted. How many of those monkeys did it right? It's no surprise to have a wonky steering wheel etc.

 

With the steering wheel centered and wheels pointing straight ahead, you should have an equal number of turns from lock to center on both sides (unless you have a '6 box).

 

All this has been covered umpteen times on here. I only asked this specific question as I'd never read about adjusting the TREs in this way (probabably explains it in Haynes and I've totally missed it!).

[jackherer 543]

With the steering wheel centered and wheels pointing straight ahead, you should have an equal number of turns from lock to center on both sides (unless you have a '6 box).

 

I fitted a rack to a 205 with a GTI6 box a few days ago, to centralise it I put it on axle stands and took the wheels off so that I could turn it to both locks without the wheel hitting the gearbox.

[casanova2007 0]

just a quick one, yes ur right that they loosen the locknut and turn the track control arm, you have to move both sides to get the correct numbers for everything to tally up , but its not as easy as it looks though because i do it everyday, its my job! like it has already been mentioned the amount of times a cars wheels have been aligned in its life is hard to tell, and yes somtimes you will get garages that dont even bother adjusting it but telling you they have, because they cant be bothered to un-seize your arms, if i was to sit there and centralise the steering rack then move the steering wheel because some monkey put there spangly momo wheel on wrong then make sure that there were equal amount of thread on the arms id be there all day! unless your cars had a hard smack on the rack and knocked it out of line or bent somthing and its been bodged a few extra threads one side doesnt make a difference. hope this clears a few things up.

[welshpug 1,657]

a few extra threads one side doesnt make a difference

 

 

you're wrong there, it certainly DOES make a difference, ESPECIALLY on a pug.

[casanova2007 0]

please explain? lets take a peugeot partner van for instance, overall toe should be -2.0 mm with a tolarance of +-1.0mm if i recall. say this car was toeing in a total of 4.7 mm for some unknown reason, the rear wheels are set where they are because of a fixed axle. the steering wheel will be clamped central and the arms adjusted to the required setting, say nsf wheel toeing (-) 3.0 mm, osf wheel toeing (+) 1.0mm, rear alignment gauges reading 5mm nsr wheel, 5mm osr wheel which means all geometry is correct and i have achieved the total toe of -2.0, , if the readings on the rear gauges are the same which they should be if the tacking has been done correctly then when you turn the wheel they will both move together 1.0mm at a time thus not affecting the handling of the vehicle,drive said vehicle down the road come back and recheck everythings the same,go to peugeot and drive a brand new partner van and it will drive the same.

[welshpug 1,657]

guess you haven't heard of Bump steer and Ackerman geometry then.

[casanova2007 0]

what im trying to get at is if the tracking is adjusted correctly it will drive how its supposed to, thus the geometry is correct. im not trying to get into an argument about it, its my job if i wasnt doing it correctly then i would have customers coming back to me all the time saying my osf wheel turns more than my nsf wheel and if i hit a bump i end up on the other side of the road! and i wouldnt have a job! you do get ppl that can really mess it up im saying i dont!

[welshpug 1,657]

but you stated here

 

a few extra threads one side doesn't make a difference.

 

 

that you don't adjust it correctly.

 

have a read of this topic, which explains why it makes a difference

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?s...89626&st=10

[casanova2007 0]

stating that doesnt mean im not doing it right, as stated in that thread you will find that you will only have the same number of threads if the track rod ends are the same, i do plenty of wheel alingments on cars that have had new track rod ends/ arms, that are not oe quality. yes if you have more considerable amount of turns at one end and none at the other you will loose lock but the wheels will still turn at the same angle.

[GLPoomobile 958]

Cassanova, with the greatest of respect, what you have said is exactly why so many garages get this wrong. And I had this exact argument with a place that did mine and were adament that the the TREs don't need to be equal length.

 

OK, so an 'internet mechanic' I may be, but my Peugeot servicing dept backed me up on this (perhaps a rather dubious point of reference on 2nd thoughts LOL).

 

Using the Peugeot partner van is a perfect example. 'Run of the mill' vehicles are not so affected by minute geometry changes. The average family hatchback is so disjointed from what happens between tyre and steering wheel, and dear old Veera Smith is not an driving enthusiast either, so she, and others like her just don't notice any difference.

 

You can't get away with that on a 205 GTI, or any other sports/performance car! The steering feel is what makes a 205 GTI. You can set the tracking as it should, but if the length from TR/rack joint to TRE/hub joint is not pretty much equal, then it's just not right. You can argue that you've done your job, but to the paying customer, have you done the job properly? IMO, no!

 

I 100 percent appreciate what you've said about time constraints. I guess if there is one lesson here, you can't pay 30 quid and expect the average high st garage to adjust everything perfectly, as it's going beyond the call of duty. If you own a performance car and want the geometry nigh on perfect, you probably need to go somewhere a bit more specialised.

 

Edited to say - I agree it's not as simple as counting TRE threads due to manufacturing tolerances, different brands on each side.

Edited October 7, 2008 by GLPoomobile

[casanova2007 0]

i completly understand where your coming from, and i wouldnt be happy if somone adjusted my tracking wrong and messed up the handling of my 205!!! for every setting of toe for a car be it sports or boring there is a tolerance, and that tolerance is what keeps the handling the same, i never once sed that id adjust a cars tracking and leave loads of threads one side and none the other because by ressetting the toe to the original settings it should be near perfect from when it was new, the only way you usually end up with a miss aligned rack is when you dnt adjust it properly (as you sed garage that think it aint worth the hassel) or somone takes the steering wheel off and doesnt put it on right. ive adjusted mine after putting on a new steering wheel and track rod ends and yes it handles spot on, i wouldnt have it any other way because lets face it a 205 gti was designed for one thing and one thing only, to be enjoyed and driven properly!!!!

[GLPoomobile 958]

Glad that we seem to be meeting somewhere in the middle with our opinions

 

My current GTI had one track rod end wound all the way in and the other out loads when I took them off the other week. Not to mention the totally shredded rack boots as the d*ck head must have twisted the track rods without loosening the clips (well, lock wire in this case). The guy I had the debate with a couple of years back, he had about 1cm difference in length in my TREs too (that was on my old 1.9).

 

I'm off to Elite in Essex to get mine done tomorrow (I remember they came recommended back in the days when I used to be obsessed with Golfs, let's hope they are still as good now they've become massive!). Tracking is pure guess work at the moment but both TREs are more or less equally set, and I'll be asking them to keep it as equal as they can. Will see what happens.