No Brakes!

[GLPoomobile 958]

Firstly, apologies for not searching first, but the rather urgent nature of the problem means I'd like to get the ball rolling now and hopefully get some quick answers, rather than spend an hour searching first.

 

When I last used the pug, 13 months ago, the brakes were spot on, brilliant in fact. It was a 1.6 and still has rear drums, which worked fine. 13 months on, and they fortunately have not seized, and appear to work OK.

 

I've just fitted a brand new Bendix MC from GSF. It's 20mm, as they don't do 20.6mm ones for Pugs now (the part number is the same as for a VW Golf). Along with a new reservoir and new seals (come with the MC). I thought the original 1.6 one was a 19mm and that this would be OK, but in reality it's actually a step back as the original is 20.6 on all GTIs

 

I've also fitted Lucas (Girling) 306 XSI calipers, which were supplied by Anthony so I have no doubts about them. New brake pads, and 266mm ATE Powerdiscs.

 

I've bled the system through twice using the 2 man system (thanks to my wife for providing the pumpage ). The 2nd time did improve the problem, but as I'm getting no more air through I can't see that a 3rd attempt is going to improve things further.

 

The pedal does not feel spongy, but it goes almost to the floor. I get resistance about an inch from full travel, and with the engine off it does not creep down. The pedal will then move as expected when I run the engine. I've tried moving forward 20 feet (can't drive as such, as no MOT) and hitting the brakes, and although it stops 'OK', I obviously only get braking as I get to the last inch of the pedal travel, and then it's more of gradual stop rather than a rapid 'through the windscreen' halt.

 

Now here's why the issue is urgent - my MOT is booked tomorrow, but I'll have to blow them out to fix this. But my tax runs out on Tuesday, and with no where to keep the car off the road, I need to fix this ASAP and get it MOTd. I don't have confidence in the brakes as they are, even if they work to a degree, to risk driving to the garage that does my MOT.

 

So my questions are:

1 - Have I made a complete cock up buy teaming a 20mm MC with the slightly bigger calipers? I'll have to replace the MC if so.

2 - Do I need to adjust the rod in the servo? If so, do I wind it in or out, and does anyone have any idea how much to adjust it?

3 - Or is it knackered rear drum auto adjusters? It was working fine before, but then it has been sat for over a year. And Haynes say this could be a fault if the pedal goes almost all the way to the floor.

4 - If the MC was junk, I presume it could only be the internal seals as Haynes say, but where would the brake fluid be going if that was the case? In the servo?

5 - When I press the pedal, I get a hiss from the gaiter on the bulkhead under the dash. But I've had this happen on quite literally every car I've owned! Is this a problem?

[welshpug 1,657]

1, no, early 1.6 gti's had 19mm M/C's.

 

2. worth checking.

 

3. doubt it as it was fine before you tried to bleed it right?

 

4. yep, the fluid would either go nowhere or into the servo.

 

5. quite normal I believe, especially if you have recently run the engine.

 

what a friend has to aid bleeding difficult systems is a metal oil pot, the type with a pump handle, filled with brake fluid and a rubber hose attached, simply backfeed the system with it, speeds up the process dramatically for not a lot of money.

 

I was going to suggest getting a garage to help, but with no brakes, DOH!

Edited September 28, 2008 by welshpug

[GLPoomobile 958]

Thanks Speedy Gonzales Mine is an 89 1.6, so not what I'd call early. I'm really thinking it must be the MC size as I know that the pedal travel increases with the bigger calipers, and I've effectively amplified the problem by fitting a smaller MC than I had before too!

 

Regards adjusting the servo rod, I'm really hoping for a fairly succinct answer on this one, as I'll need to refill the reservoir and bleed the system again once it's done, so want it right first time if that's what I've got to do.

[Pugnut 9 1 Cars]

if you have a haynes manual to hand then that will give you all the measurements for adjusting the pushrod.

 

 

the way to check for a caliper(s) giving greif is to clamp the hoses to each wheel (unless you have braided lines) with a vice grips with something soft in the jaws.

 

i've seen myself borrowing vice grips before to clamp all hoses to find out if the problem lies with the m/c and pushrod

[Super Josh 4]

Steve

 

I've been in a similar situation to you:-

 

1. I found the following problem using the two man method. The thing that I wasn't doing properly was to completely tighten the bleed nipple before the second person released the pressure on the pedal. So air was being drawn back into the system past the nipple threads

 

2. I have only had to adjust the rod clearance when fitting a completely different MC, ie a 23.8 one from a 406. And then only to alleviate a bit of pedal travel at the top of the stroke. If the pedal is sinking to the floor then you must have air in the system (see point 1).

 

 

Josh

[welshpug 1,657]

there's a specific dimension from the mating face of the servo/m-c to the nose of the rod, 22.2 to 22.4mm.

 

you should be able to pull the M/C away from the servo sufficiently by just removing the one pipe on the offside of the car, and unclipping the other 2 from the bulkhead.

 

the M.C isn't that much smaller so I don't think it would cause that much of a problem, I haven't experienced it myself though.

 

what size are the pistons in the new calipers? I think they may be 57mm, same as the gti6, so they'll work as plenty of people run that setup.

[GLPoomobile 958]

WP - no idea on piston size, would have to check in the daylight.

 

Pugnut - Yep, Haynes has the pushrod measurement, as WP has quoted, but I figured that was for a completely standard setup (which mine would have been set to already as it was fine before). I figured that since I've now got a bastard creation of smaller MC and bigger brakes that I might need to adjust it to an unknown measurement.

 

Josh - Appreciate what you've said. Let's not forget that the pedal does not go all the way to the floor, just most of the way, and when it does resist it's not spongy. I'll freely admit that I could have cocked up the bleed, as I wasn't exactly cranking the nipples back really tight each time. But like I said, the pedal isn't spongy. I've only bled brakes once before, and I used a Halfords one man kit first of all. It was s*ite! The one way valve must have been duff as I went through a couple of litres of fluid, getting no where. But that time I didn't have the symptom I have now, I just had an obviously spongy pedal. 20 minutes with a mate doing it the old fashioned way solved it, and to be honest I was probably just as casual with my nipple technique that time!

[welshpug 1,657]

the clearance to the pushrod is only to ensure that the M/C returns to its resting position fully, without going too far away and leaving you with a short pedal, adjusting it the other way can cause binding.

 

just remembered also, XSI 306 uses the same piston size as the S16 and 405 Mi, and the ZX 16v (54mm) the former use 22mm and the latter a 23.8mm like the gti6.

Edited September 28, 2008 by welshpug

[GLPoomobile 958]

Just revisited the topic I posted about the replacement MC and in that I commented that I thought the brakes were 54mm. A few people mentioned that the pedal travel would be longer but should still be OK.

 

So I dunno. I could try bleeding the brakes again tomorrow, but I've got nobody in the day who can help me (unless I pay a tramp!). I'd hate to waste a day that could be spent taking it all apart again to replace the MC or adjust the servo (which seems to be not the issue here) by waiting until the evening to bleed the brakes (when the wife is home), only to find that bleeding them still does not solve the problem.

 

What one man bleed systems are good that are readily available (Halfords/GSF/ECP etc)? I don't mind spending the money to get a properly working product. Anything to get this sorted tomorrow basically!

[welshpug 1,657]

there are 2 that Halfords supply, one is the simple pipe with a valve on the end for about £6 odd, pop on the bleed nipple dangle into a clear pot and pump away.

 

 

the other is the eezibleed, where you fill a pot up with brake fluid, attach the hose from the pot to the reservoir with the supplied attachments (I found they weren't that great a fit on a pug, so if you get the cap off a 306 and substitute that for the one in the kit you get a better seal)

 

and pressurise the pot with air from a spare wheel (max of 15 PSi) then all you have to do is open the bleed nipple and wait till clear fluid comes out.

 

 

the first I have used on my own with no trouble, main trick is to make sure that the end of the pipe is submerged so that air cant travel back up the pipe, and to only open the nipple sufficiently to bleed it, about a quarter of a turn is usually enough.

Edited September 28, 2008 by welshpug

[GLPoomobile 958]

Got the cheap one already (but came with a square container) and it's gash.

 

I was just looking at the Gunson Ezibleed, but if it's no better due to the dodgy seal then it'll be a waste of time and money. I wouldn't know where to go apart from Pug to get a 306 cap, and time is of the essence. Doubt Pug would have them on the shelf.

[welshpug 1,657]

good point, didn't think of the non scrappy nature of London, I only know of a place in West drayton not far from neat Auto's where the towed cars go, but that's a fair way out.

 

 

I think the problem with the one that has the square pot is that you cant see the fluid, get a clear jar and make sure the end is submerged and you'll get much more success I believe.

[Anthony 1,003]

Those pressure bleed kits are the only way to reliably bleed brakes on your own in my opinion/experience - I've tried many times with those cheapo things with the one-way valve, but never seem to manage to get the air out properly. With the pressure bleeder though, takes less than 10 minutes start to finish - definately £20 I'm glad that I spent, put it that way.

 

The only thing I'll say is that I strongly recommend connecting it "dry" initially and checking for any leaks before putting brake fluid in - that way, if there is any leaks, you don't cover everything inthe vicinity of the engine bay in brake fluid....

 

Personally I've had no problem with the included fittings either, on 205, 306, 406 and a few other MC reservoirs, so I wouldn't fret too much about a 306 cap.

 

Oh, and don't worry too much about Welshpug's warning about 15psi - I've used it at over double that several times (because I'm too lazy to part deflate a tire and then pump it up again afterwards) and I've never had any issues with anything going bang. Not that I accept any responsibility if yours does explode and cover you in brake fluid mind you

[GLPoomobile 958]

Oh, and don't worry too much about Welshpug's warning about 15psi - I've used it at over double that several times (because I'm too lazy to part deflate a tire and then pump it up again afterwards) and I've never had any issues with anything going bang. Not that I accept any responsibility if yours does explode and cover you in brake fluid mind you

What warning? Can't see that comment! But anyway, no problems there as 3 of my alloys are leaking and so they are always part deflated

 

I've done a search on here and I'm now more convinced that is air in the system, going by what others have said. There was a couple of recent topics almost identical to my problem, but the OPs have neglected to update the topic with any results I'd never be that lazy and selfish

 

As I'd replaced the MC and pretty much drained the whole of the front circuit too due to having the front calipers off for a while, I guess it is going to need a fair amount of bleeding to get all the air out. Just like my only previous attempt, which on that occasion was a 100% complete fluid change, and that bloody ages (I thought it was just my one man bleeder being s*it, but maybe not ).

 

I should hopefully have an able assistant tomorrow, who will be coming tooled up with an ezibleed, although I'd rather just do it the 2 man way (cue gay jokes).

 

3 more questions regarding bleeding:

1 - Should I pump the pedal a few times with the nipples closed, to build up some pressure, and then open the nipple I'm bleeding? I mean is there any benefit to it, rather than just open, pump, close, release, ad infinitum?

2 - My mate who helped me last time said it helps to put something under the pedal so that you don't pump all the way to the bottom of the stroke. What's the crack with that?

3 - On a 1.6 is the sequence - rear drivers side, rear passenger side, front passenger side, front drivers side?

[steve@cornwall 100]

I use the eezi-bleed and thoroughly recommend it. As Anthony says a dry trial fit is a great idea, and don't overtighten the cap onto the m/c as I found this can "fold" the washer and cause leakage -check the rubber washer is properly seated, too, before fitting cap. Problem I found when running it over pressure, was the fluid ran out quickly - and started pumping air into the m/c meaning a full fluid change - best to check levels after each corner is bled

[jackherer 543]

I use an easy bleed all the time, however I gave up with the extra bottle ages ago, I just connect the two hoses to each other and link the spare wheel directly to the reservoir. As long as you keep an eye on the level there is no need for an extra bottle IMO and you reduce the chance of spraying brake fluid all over the engine bay from significant to zero.

[Tom Fenton 1,541]

I've an easybleed but have never managed to get along with it. So instead I use one of the el-cheapo Draper one man bleed kits, its been used a lot and hasn't failed me yet.

 

So Steve, have you managed to sort it buddy??

[kyepan 291]

Read through this and can't quite figure out how much bleeding you've already done on the rear circuit.

 

When I changed the MC (for a standard size one) we went a bit OTT on the bleeding but it really did feel very dodgy before we gave the rears a good bleed. When you think about it, you have to fill the circuit completely, then get any bubbles out that might be at any point in that circuit.

 

We used the best part of a 500ml bottle if that helps. Also I have 307hdi 283mm setup and the pedal feel is gentle for the first 1/3 of the pedal, then goes firmer, it's actually easy to drive because you can brake gently when you want to, and stomp on them when you need / want to.

 

So the travel is not longer, just the gearing of the braking is more progressive.

 

also the signals we used for 2 man were

 

in car: "Pressure"

nipple: "open"

in car: "bottom"

nipple: "closed"

In car: "top"

 

Sounds like this pressure bleeder is a good buy too.

 

Nipple.

[GLPoomobile 958]

Well, it's sort of done

 

While I was on here at about 2am this morning, I got a PM from Ben (Westy) saying he would be in London today with not mush to do, and would I like some help. Of course I was extremely grateful!

 

Before Ben turned up, I had another go on my own, this time using the cheap halfords tube with the one way valve that I previously slagged. I took on the advice though, and stuck it in a jar instead of the white bottle, and also looped the tube so any bubbles would stop at the top of the loop. Straight away I was getting more air coming out of every circuit bar the front drivers side.

 

Then Ben turned up and I went around the car another 2 times IIRC. My communication system is far simpler, I open the nipple and shout "Down", lock the nipple when the bubbles stop coming, then shout "up", and so on. Again I was getting loads more air from every circuit, and in all I reckon I went through 500ml of fluid.

 

Ben said the pedal was getting firmer, but when I asked him to try with the engine running he said "nah, that's not right!". It's definately firmer higher up the pedal than before with the engine off, but when running it's still quite far down before it firms up. Anyway, I tested the brakes by shooting forward about 30 feet a few times and hitting the anchors, and they definately stop a lot more eagerly than before. I'm confident that at the very least they are good enough to get to the MOT, at which stage if they are not up to the job and it fails, then I'll have to ask them to fix it. I'll be travelling very early and taking it VERY carefully anyway.

 

However, I've just found something out late tonight, which may shed some light, or could just be another red herring. Somehow I completely forgot to test this before, but tonight I found that the handbrake is not working too well. With it full on, I can put the car in gear and move away. So I'm wondering if the problem is due to the auto adjusters, as Haynes does say this could be the problem if the pedal goes almost to the bottom of it's travel before acting. Had I found this out just a few hours earlier, I could have tried adjusting it, but I was out working till half 10 as it was, and have to leave very early tomorrow, so in all honesty, I'm just going to say "f*** it" and let the garage sort it out. I'm expecting a fail sheet anyway And before anyone rips me on that one, I've absolutley worked my arse ragged for the last 3 weeks and managed to overshoot my deadline by 1 day, and literally would struggle to fit in anymore jobs than I've already done.

 

One last thing regarding bleeding - should it be done with the MC cap on or off?

 

I'm sure the last time I did it I was told to have the cap off and a piece of clingfilm over the MC held on by a laccy band. So I checked Haynes and could find nothing. No mention of cap on or off. I'd been doing it with the cap on this time, but when Ben turned up he thought we should do it with the cap off, which his dad confirmed when he called him. It certainly pumped much more fluid through when we did it with the cap off.

[welshpug 1,657]

should be with the cap off, allows the fluid to pass through far easier then you pump it through to the lines. well done on getting this far Steve, I dont blame you on leaving some final bits to the garage.

 

drums at the rear? may be stretched cables.

[Pugnut 9 1 Cars]

if clamp the rear hoses under the axle together then you'll probably find the brakes are then fine . it doesnt take mush for those adjusters to stop working . in hindsight and from experience with a 1.6 system i always found long pedal travel if the adjusters weren't taking up the slack.

[GLPoomobile 958]

I'll see if I have time in the morning to adjust them. Might as well if I can! I've replaced a handbrake cable in 20 minutes before, so should be do-able. So it's just jack up the back, pull handbrake up 5 clicks, wind the nut until the shoes are just binding, pull up to 7 clicks and check wheels are locked? That's what Haynes says anyway.

 

On second thoughts, I'll bet my left onion that the handbrake cover will have rounded off screws holding it down. It's alway the simple little things that cause the biggest hassle

[maturin23 10]

I've missed this thread - really chuffed you're getting to the end of things soon.

 

You'll have to drive up the Great North Road and we can go for a wee drive in tandem.

 

Incidentally I found out this morning that RPM never completed the paperwork for my MOT in January - according to the DVLA I've had no MOT for the last 9 months. They're going to retest and certify it for free, and whack my new wishbones in at the same time.

[GLPoomobile 958]

Ian - I'm also glad I'm getting near the end*. Frankly, I'm utterly shattered right now, and badly need a break from working on it. My own fault entirely, as I should have completed a lot of this work months ago, last year even, but as per usual I dragged my heels and left it all too late. I seem to be better motivated by tight targets (fnarr ).

 

*unfortunately, even once the MOT is done it won't be 'the end'. The inlet manifold will need to come off again, due to the leak from my T piece in the oil pressure switch location. I also managed to snap the terminal tag off of the OE pressure sender AFTER I'd put it all back together. And I've managed to strip the thread on one of the inlet manifold bolts at the belt end. The loom needs to come out AGAIN for the final wrap, and possibly some fine tuning to the length and routing. There's various other bits and bobs in the bay that need to be tidied, routed better, or screwed/bolted/P clipped/cable tied down. A lot of the loom for the front lights and stuff could really do with being tidied up, as it's typically rotten. I need to make a mount in my vents to hold my 2 gauges (volts and oil pressure) and mount my 2nd oil pressure warning somewhere. Need to take the instruments out to replace the oil pressure warning light, and might swap in my BX dials while I'm there. Then there's the fact it desperately needs properly washing, polishing and waxing (which will be fun outside at this time of year). And on and on and Ariston.......

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

I've got a Gunsons pressure bleeding kit, the only piece of advice I have for using them is wrap a cable tie around the mc to hold the cap onto the reservoir. I've had them pop off once or twice & spray a bottle full of brake fluid around the engine bay/ over an car parked nearby. (luckily? always my own).

 

I used mine to bleed the brakes on my mums car on Sunday night in the dark after I'd finished replacing a wheel cylinder & it was easy.

 

Graham.