Vortex-performance-exhausts

[NeilGTi85 5]

http://www.vortex-performance-exhausts.co.uk/index.php

 

I've never heard of them before......sounds abit suspicious with them gains there talking about.......do they really work that well??!!

 

If you go to the link and go to the technology tab and then test results you'll see what they have apparently tested with there system!?!?

 

BEFOREVauxhall Nova 2001 1200 Petrol BHP=119 Torque=95 AFTER BHP=145 Torque=110 Regal Autosport Mapped

 

Neil

[Veero 1]

Sounds too good to be true to me. Look at the bottom of the test page. The 307 HDi produces 130kg of CO2 per km! Jesus! Every 10kms you leave the mass of the whole car behind in CO2

 

But seriously how can it actually "suck" exhaust gasses out without any moving parts? It mentions the turbine effect but unless the exhaust gasses are being propelled by the cylinder stroke and the exhaust valve being open (and apart from the gasses expanding slightly in the exhaust system) how can the gasses actually be moved along inside the exhaust?

 

If they are just fitting a back box (like in the Subaru comparison), then surely if there is a centre silencer present you are just shifting the bottleneck along to the centre silencer (assuming the rear silencer was the biggest bottleneck).

 

Am I totally retarded when it comes to exhuasts or am I vaguely on the money?

 

 

 

Edit: and didn't they stop making the Nova in the 1990's?

Edited September 2, 2008 by Veero

[NeilGTi85 5]

In other country's the corsa is called a nova but yes, it does sound to good to be true.

 

A friend of mine went to Power Flow and they told him about "Vortex" and they said there good......

 

Apparently its the back box that creates a vortex.....so effectivly sucking the gasses......but you must have to have the whole system and not just the back box.....

 

I'm tempted to investigate some more because that is a massive increase of power for very little money

 

Neil

[j_turnell 137 3 Cars]

Youll never get a big increase in power from an exhaust on a n/a 205, a turbo powered jap lump maybe...

[Veero 1]

Apparently Nova's didn't sell well in Spain, No-va = It doesn't go

 

On a similar note I've heard that Pajero means w4nker in certain Spanish dialect

[brianthemagical 1]

Exhaust can suck out gas as the gasses in the exhaust have momentum, bestowed via the piston, and this momentum will then be reacted against by the decreasing pressure in the cylinder, causing a vacume which will then 'suck' (it's actually the now higher pressure in the cylinder than the tail end on the gasses in the exhaust causing a flow) any gas left in the cylinder and any gasses staring to arrive via the valve lead.

 

To create any kind of vortex requires energy, which would come from the exhaust gas, slowing it down, meaning the next mass of gas would have to move it. Assuming no effeciency loss, it wouldn't do anything as any momentum, or sucking gained, would have first been lost.

 

Edited after i'd viewed the site.

 

G50's don't have any special exhaust on them, i.e no resonators.

How can an exhaust give 25 bhp on a 1.2, how can a standard 1.2 give 120bhp and why would one have a mapped ecu on a nove unless it wasn't standard?

They reckon combustion in a an otto engine is an explosion!!!!

They also state their exhausts use physics. There was me thinking mine was magic.

Just one of them things i suppose, all three quater length shorts and marketing hype.

Edited September 2, 2008 by brianthemagical

[NeilGTi85 5]

Exhaust can suck out gas as the gasses in the exhaust have momentum, bestowed via the piston, and this momentum will then be reacted against by the decreasing pressure in the cylinder, causing a vacume which will then 'suck' (it's actually the now higher pressure in the cylinder than the tail end on the gasses in the exhaust causing a flow) any gas left in the cylinder and any gasses staring to arrive via the valve lead.

 

To create any kind of vortex requires energy, which would come from the exhaust gas, slowing it down, meaning the next mass of gas would have to move it. Assuming no effeciency loss, it wouldn't do anything as any momentum, or sucking gained, would have first been lost.

 

Edited after i'd viewed the site.

 

G50's don't have any special exhaust on them, i.e no resonators.

How can an exhaust give 25 bhp on a 1.2, how can a standard 1.2 give 120bhp and why would one have a mapped ecu on a nove unless it wasn't standard?

They reckon combustion in a an otto engine is an explosion!!!!

They also state their exhausts use physics. There was me thinking mine was magic.

Just one of them things i suppose, all three quater length shorts and marketing hype.

 

Well said, I am going to put that to there director......see how he can explain it

 

Neil

[Mandic 0]

Haven't bothered reading all tech stuff on their web page, but looking at the shape of the silencer I believe the idea behind is quite simple and it works.

 

 

I think it's called the aspirator and it uses venturi effect. Main flow (red), which needs to be forced/blown in, goes through a narrow pipe where it speeds up, causing vacuum behind. This vacuum then draws more air/media in (green), thus improving efficiency. Don't know what gains would it bring if at the back of the tail pipe, as there is no additional media to draw.

 

Cheers

 

Ziga

[NeilGTi85 5]

It'll be intresting to see what reply I get

 

I was told by a friend at power flow that they are around £500 and thats an amazing price for such an increase in power if it does work...im sure though with other mods it would not work as effectivly when standard.

 

Intresting stuff though

 

Neil

[kyepan 291]

From what I understand, back pressure, or more specifically the reflected standing wave that pulses up and down the length of the exhaust. generated each time an exhaust valve opens and discharges the cylinder into the exhaust, then reflected back at the end of the exhaust, and any other large change in diameter that forces the air to go round corners or stop. This pressure wave can be .. if properly timed used to scavenge escaping cylinder gas by getting it caught in a wave as it reflects off the exhausted charge as the valve opens.. this only happens at a certain frequency, harmonic frequency. That frequency is defined by the length / diameter of the exhaust. Hence the reason why sticking big bore exhausts on an Integra type r's completely kills all the midrange torque as it moves the harmonic frequency somewhere else...... so I'm not totally convinced that getting rid of back pressure is going to aid performance, if the OEM exhaust is tuned to make use of it at a certain RPM range.

 

I guess the vortex may be used to get the air moving between changes in diameter without so much interference... like a rifle bullet, get it spinning and it will be more stable in its flight path.

 

please note, this is just what i've read, and i don't have a degree on computational fluid dynamics, or have ever studied gas flow analysis... so if you have, please step up and dispel the hokie pokie hear say being spoken above.

 

 

this is their ... results page.

 

Power and Torque Improvements

-------------------Before----------After

Car Year CC Fuel Type !!!!!!!!!!!BHP /TORQUE BHP/TORQUE Customer / Agent ECU

Ford Focus Petrol Performance 3000 Mapped

VW Golf 2001 1800 Petrol¬¬¬¬ 150 130 225 240 Torque Exhausts Mapped

BMW 2005 2000 Diesel¬¬¬¬¬¬¬ 160 250 222 310 Torque Exhausts Mapped

Audi TT 2007 1800 Petrol¬¬¬¬ 180 173 240 248 Torque Exhausts Mapped

Vauxhall Nova 2001 1200 Petrol 119 95 145 110 Regal Autosport Mapped

Nissan Skyline 1994 2500 Petrol 258 213 276 224 Torque Exhausts Self learn

 

J

Edited September 3, 2008 by kyepan

[NeilGTi85 5]

This is the email I got back :

 

Hi Neil The remarks you picked up on the forum are typical forum types of texts. They are written by people who do not know what they are talking about. If they had a master or doctorate degree in physics they would not make remarks about anything they have not tested themselves or don't understand. Only an idiot does that. On the Internet people are able to make many remarks without fear of being made to look stupid. If we prove the person who wrote the remark to be talking nonsense, he or she will only change their user name. We would also have difficulties to pursue them legally for any damage they may have done to our marketing efforts, so we leave it and hope someone who has a vortex exhaust says something. We have thousands of very satisfied customers in racing, high performance road cars, 4x4s, light commercials, HGVs and even ships. Regarding the Nova 1.2, I was there when they fitted the vortex to a Nova for the first time. The car had a Unichip and a few other mods but they could only get 125BHP. After fitting the vortex they got 148BHP. A similar car that I know about was done in Sheffield by Exhausts UK and it reached 147BHP but I don't know what engine management it had. I believe Torque Exhausts in Enfield fitted the vortex to a Nova that gained 25BHP. There are lots of them that have been done. Fact is that type of car can get that sort of gain. I believe Torque Exhausts gives a guarantee that if the car does not gain at least 10% extra power you can have your money and old exhaust system back. If you have any further questions feel free to ask. You will get better advice than from any forum. Mike Campbell

 

Edit - I replyed to this asking what the expected gain would be on a std GTi-6 Engine and also said can you garantee a 10% gain if I purchase your system and get it mapped, If it does not reach the expected gain I would like a full refund + a free mapping session at a place of my choice.

 

Neil

Edited September 3, 2008 by NeilGTi85

[brianthemagical 1]

Fair enough. Does 1/3 or a Degree count? I like the way no actual answers were given.

 

Mandic: the venturi effect lower the pressure of the gas due to the increased speed, thur drawing air form a higher pressure area, but in the diffuser the oppoaite takes place and the gas slows agin, so the net effct is not much. If the venturi were infinatley long and had no diffuser then the gas would remain at an increased velocity, but to draw in more air will then transfer momentum form the initial gas to the secondary gas, thus, unless the secondary gas already had momentum at a lower velocity the net effect would be a decrease in overall speed as the energy used on the primary gas would need to be used on the ever increasing secondary gas, thus it would slow down, so extra forces need to keep exerting on the secondary gasses, having very little effect in an exhaust.

 

There are a couple of methods of tuning the gas flows into and out of an engine. These include resonance, pulse tuning and ram charging (not the ram pipe type). Resonance isn't relavant hear so i'll skip it. Pulse tunning is basically wnat keypan mantioned, there are pressure waves, the same as sound waves, traveling through the exhaust, as we all know from physics stuff (i.e. not how anyone but the vortex peeps design exhausts) creates a high pressure wave the propagates through its medium, so at any moment in time there will be high pressure and high density areas of the medium. If the low pressure wave can be timed to happen upon the cylinder just as piston reaches TDC on the exhust stroke, it can effectively 'suck' some of the gas out, but as it is a tuned acoustics principle, it can only happen at certain frequencies for given tuned lengths. The length is usually only the manifold, so the back box has little to do with this, but the waves need to reflect of something, that something being the different densitys on the gas, caused by 'back pressure'.

 

The ram charging is as i explained earlier.

 

Hope that helps makes some peeps more qualified than the rest of the nets foru comunities.

[kyepan 291]

vortex generators on auto speed, proven to reduce drag.... hmmm i wonder if there is something there after all

 

part 1

part 2

part 3

part 4

 

auto speed is an excellent site, i suggest you all read it!!!

 

from this.... the vortex generators should be no taller than the boundary layer they are being designed to speed up..

 

How thick would the boundary layer of air attached to the surface of an exhaust? and therefore how big would any vortex aero devices need to be inside the exhaust to keep the boundary layer attached.

 

J

Edited September 3, 2008 by kyepan

[brianthemagical 1]

Two completely differnt circumstances. I havn't read theauto speed site as its too late so not sure what they are saying. As far as i know, they are designed to create a vortex of the sharp tip of the device, creating turbulent flow whivh stays attached to the body for increased angles of divergence, this then means less drag is produced byt he flow staying attached but more drag is produced by the turblent flow on the body, the net result is less drag though. As the boundary layer increases with increasing speed they will only be at peak effeciency for a very narrow speed range.

 

As the air in an exhaust is pressurise the boundary layer will likey be less than that of a surface in free flow. The bondary layer in an exhaust is not a problem or concern at all if itis designed around. It will effectively be the same as a smaller diameter pipe, so a bigger pipe will need to be used but that is all part of a standard system.

 

The problem with any aero device is it requiers gas to be affected to work. A vortex is simply (incase some people don't know) swirling air. To make the air swirl Newton tells us we need to apply a force, which needs to come from somewhere. It is developed form the the velocity of the gas as it hits the vortex generators, gthen is either deflected off or the diverance in the air pressures on either side create a flow. So this ineffeciency would need to be recouped as well as the improvements.

 

I can't really see a situation where any significant aero effects would be benificial in an exhaust, despite thinking alot about it.

 

Another point on aeros, does Thrust SSC have vortex generators? No. So as with most things one mans Saxo is another mans bearable transport.

 

N.B vortex generators on a 205 will do very little, as the spoiler prevents the airflowing down the hatch and consequently over any significant divergencies the flow does not need to be modified to help it stay attached.

[NeilGTi85 5]

This is all way over my head......very intresting though, I've found a couple of vids on you tube of people with them and seen a couple of reviews.

 

But still not enough to warrent spending 500 on a system

 

Neil

[large 33]

What we need to do is all chip in and get one and fit it to a standard engine. If it will not make 10% gain we should put it were the sun don't shine I for one would pay a couple of pounds to do this

[NeilGTi85 5]

What we need to do is all chip in and get one and fit it to a standard engine. If it will not make 10% gain we should put it were the sun don't shine I for one would pay a couple of pounds to do this

 

I am tempted to get one as they do garentee your money back....but.....whats to say they can not make the RR map to what they want if they map it in house??

 

As I am about (Little while of yet, still saving the penny's) to buy some jenveys and a emerald m3d and get my engine worked on, I may get the system....get emerald to map it without the system then agian with it......

 

I'm going to do a little more reserch on the system before I commit my time and money to it...

 

Neil

[brianthemagical 1]

Unless it's coutom made it's not perfect, in which case an off the shelf system will be good enough. Not sure how much custom designed systems cost though.

 

If someone does buy one, i think i have access to an RR and a good enough mapper/operator.

[large 33]

The thing that gets me with things like this and it may just be me is you get loads of companies that say things like, this air filter/exhoust can give your car 10% more bhp. When what they should say is if you spend about 5K on your engine and do every other mod put it on the RR then fit our product you may see a 10% gain.