1.9 Mi16 And Semi-slicks

[Alan_M 66 1 Cars]

I'm deciding on whether to go the whole hog on my 205 and get some proper tyres for the track action, keeping F1's for the road. On normal tyres, I seem to be able to cook them quite quickly, hence my incident at the Ring due to melting F1's.

 

Only thing is I have concerns on grenading my Mi lump from surge. But I've chatted to a few race/rally lads of here now and it seems some Mi's do suffer, some don't.

 

My Mi is running the GTi6 sump with pump baffle and nothing else and does suffer surge, but it has never dropped below 1.5bar, and certainly has never had the light on. I do have the other sump parts from a '6' in the garage, along with a PTS baffle sump.

 

I was considering the Toyo R888's at each corner, and would also fit an oil pressure light at least, maybe a decent gauge too.

 

Have any other 1.9 Mi owners running semi-slicks had problems or found that the problem is that bad?

 

Opinions please?

[16v205 9]

My old mi used to have the oil pressure needle move a bar or two when cornering hard but could never make it go to 0 or bring the low pressure warning light on. It has a tin baffled sump, combo oil pump (406 turbo/405 mi16), pump baffle and chain guard.

The last trackday I done on this engine was on road legal slicks and we were out all day at anglesey and suffered no issues apart from the tyres delamanating the treads off the carcass, gutted really as they were nearly new.

[RonnieG 0]

Did you leave the 15mm strengthener/spacer plate on the base of the Mi block when you fitted the Gti6 sump & if so did you also extend the oil pick up pipe at the same time as fitting the sump ?

[Alan_M 66 1 Cars]

Did you leave the 15mm strengthener/spacer plate on the base of the Mi block when you fitted the Gti6 sump & if so did you also extend the oil pick up pipe at the same time as fitting the sump ?

 

No & No.....

[danpug 1]

I'd go for the 888's. At the price they are in the group buys it'd be silly not to. I drove a friends very good mi16 yesterday running the toyo's and it grips like hell with no oil surge.

[Tom Fenton 1,541]

Bog standard Mi16 engine apart from a homemade baffle plate in the sump, yes the gauge does drop slightly when cornering hard but as above never gets that low. Have used Dunlop Direzzas, and Yoko A008R's in the past.

[VisaGTi16v 1]

Standard guage is no use at all as its too slow and the light comes on at way to low a pressure, something like 8psi. Fit a standalone one thats set to about 25psi.

 

I have run my mi16 for 5 years of sprinting with just a pts baffle plate in and its still in one bit however since I fitted a standalone light and now run on softer slicks compared to the old 48r's, the light was coming on to much for my liking, 6 times at one event...! So the car has been off the road since the end of last year so I can modifiy it a bit more. I finally fired it up at the weekend. It now has a xu10 sump with most of the single baffle cut out, I have modified my pts baffle plate to fit and I am still running the stiffener (normally described as a spacer) and with a PeterT pickup extension so I can run an extra litre or so of oil. Nothing else I can do really other than dry sump it or another drain from the head but it will be better than before and its served me well, no idea why some of these engines die instantly, 5 years of competition for me and ok!

[AdamP 0]

If you were cooking Eagle F1s then im pretty sure you'll overheat Toyo R888s in no time at all. What size tyres do you run?

[VisaGTi16v 1]

F1's grip well for road tyres but do suffer wear wise due to the tread layout. A friend killed a brand new set in one auto solo! Medium 888's should last longer as although softer, they are designed to take the heat and have less tread to move about (which heats up even more)

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

I find F1s to not that great on trackdays as they overheat easily if there's anything more than legal tread depth, beyond that and down to bald they're not bad, but they do go "off" quick if they're newish. I'd be very dissappointed if 888s weren't much better!!

[Dino 3]

Alan I found my Mi would surge at the ring REALLY badly through the twisty sections after the Karussel due to fast and hard cornering and I was running road tyres (Bridgestone S03s)

 

I think you are kidding yourself if you think that you might get lucky if you dont have surge with the slicks.

 

PS - you coming to the 'ring this time mate?

[Ahl 4]

Sorry for the 2nd hand information, but I believe it to be accurate:

 

From what I gather from Jeram, who regularly tracks 205's (or used to), even just adding an extra litre or two of oil will go some way to combating oil surge. The standard sump will easily take it as the oil sits so far below the crank etc.

 

Add to that an extended sump plus baffles, extended pickup etc and perhaps that is the problem solved?

PeterT has also itterated this many times, and seems to have extensive knowledge of tracking mi16's.

[Alastairh 47]

Yeah, to follow Dinos coments i agree.

 

My Mi does on the road (as much as i can watch whilst giving it some) but thats with 2 week old paradas in there prime. 270 lb springs, pair of large bars at the rear etc, so my limits of confidents is not with the suspension and grip of a spin, but more with that bloody gauge.

 

But all that is in bloody Northamptonshire, never mind the ring

 

If i was in your position, baring in mind its off the road, you've got a couple of months until the next trip, and enthusiasm. I would chuck that 6 lump in from the start thats in the garage.

 

You know that gauge is your limiting factor. Also could leave you to being stranded and big fines of dropping oil. Once the engine is in, then design the suspension (spring rates, camber etc) around the slightly heavier iron block.

 

Al

Edited June 2, 2008 by Alastairh

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Mi16's 1.9 & 2.0 surge with the PTS Baffle & Trap Door on Road tyres, FACT, The sticking more oil in has never fulfilled me with confidence it's not curing the problem only masking it and with the lower sump on track is not a good idea with kerb hopping it can lead to dumping your oil on the road/track.

But it's your driving style really and how far you push the car, Even when you think your at 100% there's still allot more that can come from the car, you'll be surprized,

[AdamP 0]

F1's grip well for road tyres but do suffer wear wise due to the tread layout. A friend killed a brand new set in one auto solo! Medium 888's should last longer as although softer, they are designed to take the heat and have less tread to move about (which heats up even more)

 

Fair enough... I thought the R888s were considerably softer! I know of a few people who have run them on Imprezas and Evos (heavier cars I know...) and have found them to 'go off' quickly on hot tracks. Not sure what compound they were on though!

 

My dad had F1 GSD2s on his old Impreza and although they weren't excellent in the dry (spin spin spin at the 'ring 'ring 'ring!) they were well above average in the damp and wet. I know that's not the aim of the thread but as an all round road tyre in britain they are probably near the top of my list!

[Alan_M 66 1 Cars]

Alan I found my Mi would surge at the ring REALLY badly through the twisty sections after the Karussel due to fast and hard cornering and I was running road tyres (Bridgestone S03s)

 

I think you are kidding yourself if you think that you might get lucky if you dont have surge with the slicks.

 

PS - you coming to the 'ring this time mate?

 

I'm off to the 'Ring for the Old Timers Grand Prix with Rob, meeting Feb out there. If you do another run out later in the year or even next year keep us informed.

 

But yeah, I get surge too but I have never had it drop below 1ish bar, certainly never had the light on.

 

Yeah, to follow Dinos coments i agree.

 

My Mi does on the road (as much as i can watch whilst giving it some) but thats with 2 week old paradas in there prime. 270 lb springs, pair of large bars at the rear etc, so my limits of confidents is not with the suspension and grip of a spin, but more with that bloody gauge.

 

But all that is in bloody Northamptonshire, never mind the ring

 

If i was in your position, baring in mind its off the road, you've got a couple of months until the next trip, and enthusiasm. I would chuck that 6 lump in from the start thats in the garage.

 

You know that gauge is your limiting factor. Also could leave you to being stranded and big fines of dropping oil. Once the engine is in, then design the suspension (spring rates, camber etc) around the slightly heavier iron block.

 

Al

 

The 6 lump is more of a long term plan, not got the time at the moment to rebuild it as the rest of the car is going to consume a lot of beer drinking hours.

 

Looks as though I'll just have to use the new Parada's I have, and hope it stays dry!

[Henry 1.9GTi 36]

my (Dino's old) Mi surges a little bit, dino had the PTS baffle which I replaced with GTi-6 sump and extended pickup. Am going to overfill at the next track day, 7 liters! or something close to that and see how it goes. to be honest at bedford it surged on a few bends but i didnt bother backing off as it ruins the fun.

 

Darren Halliwell? not sure on the spelling and not sure if he frequents this forum but over on PSOOC he is running an Mi with a DES developments modified sump and some internal changes and reports not suffering surge, so might be worth looking into.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Darren, He drives like a old granny

[VisaGTi16v 1]

AdamP, they are softer but have less tread as they are more of a slick, its the tread moving on the F1's that buggers them. Try some yoko parada's 2 or something which will grip well (but not as good as 888s) and last a lot longer

[Henry 1.9GTi 36]

haha Miles

 

perhaps you have stumbled onto the one and only solution bar dry sump?

 

never seen his car in action myself so can't comment.

 

what is annoying is pasengering a mk2 golf 20v pushing a evo fq 320 off the track at combe and his oil pressure guage doesnt budge !!

[AdamP 0]

AdamP, they are softer but have less tread as they are more of a slick, its the tread moving on the F1's that buggers them. Try some yoko parada's 2 or something which will grip well (but not as good as 888s) and last a lot longer

 

Gotcha!

[Ahl 4]

Even on a car without an extended sump, I don't see how the solution can be any simpler than adding more oil into the sump, especially when it sits so far below the crank etc in the first place.

 

Problem: Cylinder head holds too much oil - doesn't drain oil back to sump quick enough.

Simple solution: add more oil to sump

Add baffles, trapdoors, windage trays, extended sumps/pickups, whatever the hell you like, to suit.

 

Maybe its just me, but this seems like a simple engineering solution that everyone ignores, before going on off on a tangent about other cylinder heads, dry sumping, etc etc repeat ad nauseum. This thread seems to be repeating itself over and over.

[VisaGTi16v 1]

I think there is a limit to how much oil you can add but im no expert. What I would like is some actual hard evidence/testing from someone who has filled in the low centre troff (sp?) in the Mi16 head where the oil sits so it more resembles the GTi6 head and also opened up a second drain hole because as you say, the problem is the head not draining which then leads to the bottom end issues due to lack of oil.

[James_R 3]

Or just go do it and if you get an issue fit an Accusump and presto, I know they have a bad rep with the internet mechanics, but the racers swear by them, and for the money and hassle factor are far cheaper.

 

just a 4pint one would be fine, bolt it behind the drivers seat, have the cut off valve pumbed in by the handbreak, and run it in to the oil coller loop with the non return valve, and presto no more issues.

[James_m 0]

IIRC Rob Thomson did some extensive tests with the accusump, and found it to be not particuarly effective. I cant remember why but there is a thread about it somewhere.

 

Ahl - Loads of people have tried the more oil solution, including myself.

In fact ive never ran my Mi16 on standard sump and capacity, so can only comment on what its like with the extended capacity and trap door sump, and IMO its nowhere near good enough to give confidence on track.

For me, the Mi16 is a waste of time on track, whats the point if you spend half the time looking at the gauge?

I know others have ran Mi16's extensively on track with no blow ups, for me i just cant risk killing my daily driver.

 

Visa, thats a clever idea in filling up the head. Its a shame the aftermarket support for peugeots is so low. I bet if this engine was made by vauxhall, Vw or anything Jap, a bolt on solution would have been available years ago.