1.8 Xu 16v

[Leon C 1]

Has anyone sucessfully fitted one to a 205 yet, in either modified or standard form?

 

I beleive they originally belonged to 306 XS's* and Citroen Xsara's, but I'm unsure of their exact specification (weight, power etc) and how much trouble if any they would be to fit to a 205 GTI. I'm just trying to guage whether they could be a worthy alternative to a MI16 or GTI-6... What are peoples thoughts?

[Baz 421]

A worthy replacement to an Mi16/Gti6 - yes.

 

But as a hybrid using Gti6 head & cams etc. Has an advantage in the alloy block, a similar weight to an 8v iirc. Would also be a rev happy engine i should imagine. Is ideal for some competitiors in the west as thier class breaks are up to 1800cc.

 

Very similar to the GTi6 engine, but having a milder cams and port castings, valves are also smaller iirc.

 

I'm sure there's a couple of people here, Dixon, Danpug (may be turbo'd?), and i think Pugtorque bought JamesR's hybrid engine.

Edited April 24, 2008 by Baz

[welshpug 1,661]

speak to sandy

 

the block is near identical to the alloy Mi and the 8 valver's, so installation is straightforward enough, standard they're not up to much, but with a few mods they come alive, and sandy has proven that you don't need a mega build to achieve very good torque and power with Dixon's 306 race car.

 

IF I were to build an engine for my 205 to replace the 8 valve'r I think it'd be one of these.

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

AFAIK there are a couple of people on here that have fitted them into a 205 or 309. pip470 & Sandy are two I can think of.

 

They don't weigh much more than an 8v engine. I bought one from James_R & I carried the bare engine from the back of the car into my celler & then lifted it onto the engine stand on my own without injuring myself.

 

They were fitted to the Xantia & 406 from 95, ZX, 306 & Xsara from 97.

 

Power as standard is quite low at 112 @ 5500 but the head is quite restricted as standard & plenty more is available from it.

 

Sandy posted quite a lot of information a few months ago about these engines so try a search to find it.

 

Graham.

[danpug 1]

According to sandy the 1.8 16v is within 5kgs of the weight of the 8v! I will eventually be running a turbo 1.8 but with an 8v head. You have to ask yourself what you really want from an engine, if you want cheap high power then this probably isn't the one for you but if you want something a bit more exciting and lively then the 1.8 is supposed to be a good 'un. No doubt sandy will chime in.

[Leon C 1]

I'm sure its a lot easier to come by a good one than a MI16, not to mention how much cheaper they would be.

The lack of weight makes a compelling case too!

 

How much trouble are they to fit? Are they're mounting/clearance issues like the MI16

[danpug 1]

Similar to a gti6 but you have more master cylinder clearence because of the shorter height. I picked up my 55k engine complete for £150.

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

They fit straight in using the standard engine mounts on the 205 points but you'll have the usual mc cam cover clearance issues as with most 16v's in a 205.

 

The GTi-6 inlet/exhaust manifolds are a direct fit onto the head even if you use a modified XU7 one & the downpipe needs shortening (not re-angling) to fit.

 

Graham.

[Leon C 1]

I'm guessing with the cams and head off a GTI-6, the XU 1.8's would easily make 155 BHP right? - Thats gotta be at least 30 more than my 1.9 is releasing.

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

With the GTi-6 head & cams they should definately have nearer Mi power once mapped on whatever ecu you use.

 

I'll find out one day when I eventually fit mine but thats a bit down the list of jobs yet.

 

Graham.

[pip470 61]

I have this engine with the the gti 6 exhaust manifold and bike carbs, im running mbe ignition mangagement and it produced 126 hp. See here for the graphs, http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?s...75578&st=50 . The engines used for the quarter mile and i had a 1.9 8 valve in standard form apart from a full magnex system and air filter, so my comparison is and it follows the 8v and 16v trends is that the 8v had a lot more tourqe lower down but the 16 v had more at top end so was a quicker engine overall. The 16v engine at the pod gave me consistantly higher 60ft times than the 8v. There very cheap to get hold of though which is the reason i got it, and its not going to be tears if it blows up.

[Sandy 191]

I love it, it's a great engine with a quite different character, noise and delivery to the other XUs. The one I ran in my Goodwood was a standard 1.8 16v with GTi6 cams, 45mm TBs, GTi6 exhaust and mapped DTA. I didn't roller it, but the performance suggested about 155bhp, a GTi6 head would certainly have given more power.

 

I've posted various bits about it in the past, here are some examples:

Search results

 

The XU7J4 race engine I just finished gave approx 218bhp and 173lbft. The power was roughly what I expected, but the torque was 20lbft up on what I was expecting. We rechecked the corrections and results several times to be sure, but whichever way we looked at it, that's what it was, 97lbft/litre!

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

The XU7J4 race engine I just finished gave approx 218bhp and 173lbft. The power was roughly what I expected, but the torque was 20lbft up on what I was expecting. We rechecked the corrections and results several times to be sure, but whichever way we looked at it, that's what it was, 97lbft/litre!

 

What spec was this engine to get that sort of power!?

I would be very happy to get a 1800 over 200bhp.......

[Batfink 201]

Exact details will be a little secretive but i'm sure Sandy can build you one

When I was last down, Sandy showed me the head and the ports are tiny. Absolutely perfect for modifying to match your cam and bottom end choice.

 

I think I will be putting one on my new engine rather than the mi16 head

[Sandy 191]

Spec on that one:

 

XU7J4 block (LFY) solid mounted in chassis

XU7J4 alloy sump

XU7J4 crank (81.4mm stroke) lightened and balanced

XU7J4 flywheel lightened and balanced

Genuine main bearings (graded to equal clearances)

Custom machined H-beam con rods (150.0mm long, 22mm pin) with ARP2000 bolts

ACL big end bearings

Revised oil pump gearing

Genuine belt rollers (steel type), cambelt and water pump

Custom 83.5mm pistons (JE Mi16 type extensively machined to get desired crown height and shape, valve cutouts)

Bored OE Mi16 liners to 83.5mm

XU7J4L4 head ported principally by Mark Shillaber, with final amendments to inlet port entry by me

Standard valve sizes

JRE (John Read) custom cam profiles on GTi6 inlet blanks

JRE double valve springs and retainers

Solid lifters with specially adapted shims (tricky installation with these retainers)

GTi6 OE adjustable pulleys

Maniflow custom 4-2-1 exhaust manifold to JRE primary/secondary/collector dimensions (cam specific)

Custom 2 box 2.25" exhaust by Colin Satchell

Custom inlet manifold by Colin Satchell to my design

Jenvey TB 45mm (118 long) bodies

45mm x 90mm long Jenvey trumpets

2 sets of 180cc injectors @ 3 bar, staged on duty (inner set only to about 150bhp, then inner and outer sets)

DTA E48 ECU on Custom loom by me, mapped by me.

 

As Kev says, the thing I like about the XU7J4 head is that the inlet side is like a blank canvas for porting, you can more or less create whatever port shape you want. It's alot more work than porting the GTi6 head, but the mid section and shape of the inlet port I used on this one could not be done on an Mi16/S16/GTi6 etc head, because it's already arguably to big there, so there's no material to work with, you have to work above and below the OE mid section basically. That's fine on the >2.0 engines, but 2.0 and below IMO it's a compromise. I've just done some work on one of these heads for a 2.0 16v, which I'll post the results from once it's set up (good or bad!)

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

so is the XU7 head a 16v head, sorry i dont know what this engine is actually taken from?!

 

Sounds like Throttle bodies with the 8 injectors is the best way to go for real power, think ill stick to my 45's at the moment then look to this in the future!!

 

So whats best for Hillclimbs, 16v or 8v..............ive had so many varied opinions, ie 16v = BHP and so top end power then 8v = torque and so better pull lower down!!

[Batfink 201]

16v beats 8v in all areas including low down torque. This 8v torque thing is an urban myth, its only because the 16v's come on cam and majorly outperform at higher revs where the 8v tails off...

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Custom 83.5mm pistons (JE Mi16 type extensively machined to get desired crown height and shape, valve cutouts)

Bored OE Mi16 liners to 83.5mm

 

I thought you said that all Mi16 Pistons were 83mm?!

 

I would prefer to go for the 83.5 Mi16 intruder Pistons so to get the cc as close to 1800 as possible and keep a high CR

[Sandy 191]

Absolutely, it's more about what people expect or how they try to categorise things, than the reality I think. 8v engines can often be more responsive, which feels like more torque, but 8v heads are generally, almost without exception, inferior to 8v heads. Some 8v designs (Peugeot TU, Lotus Twin Cam etc) can nearly match the efficency of 16v heads.

 

Mi16 pistons are normally 83mm, forged aftermarket pistons are available in greater bore sizes, such as the 83.5mm ones I used. 0.5mm is going to add 21cc, you won't see a useful difference from that, certainly not enough to measure on most rolling roads etc.

Edited April 25, 2008 by sandy309

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

in that case dont think ill bother with a BV 8v head and just save up for a 16v Head conversion, im not even gonna go into the conversion as ive read various threads and seems a bit of work with exhaust mani;s etc!!

Edited April 25, 2008 by wardy18

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Mi16 pistons are normally 83mm, forged aftermarket pistons are available in greater bore sizes, such as the 83.5mm ones I used. 0.5mm is going to add 21cc, you won't see a useful difference from that, certainly not enough to measure on most rolling roads etc.

 

Ok cool, so just stick with machined standard mi16 pistons at 83mm, whats rods would you use for my 1800 build?!

 

To be honest would they ever even be aware if eventually i went for 84mm pistons and got it to 1804cc

[GLPoomobile 958]

Sandy

 

I've followed Dixon's build diary and was extremely impressed with your recent results. I also know you have heralded these engines for some time now.

 

As a matter of interest, from a budget point of view, how does something like Dixon's engine compare to an Mi16, S16 or GTi6 if you were looking for similar performance from those? In fact (and I appreciate you or Dixon may wish to be cagey about this) what sort of ballpark figure would one be looking at for a similar build as his?

[Sandy 191]

I like to stay inside the rules Wardy! Custom rods from Farndon (Robson Engineering) or soem other rods that nearly fit, slightly modified, which I don't want to give away!

 

GLP, if the engine isn't for a specific formula or class, simply for a road or track car, I would build a 2.2 using the XU10J4R 406 head re-worked. The "engine" cost (minus ECU/bodies/ancillaries) is about the same for all of them, around £5k inc VAT. You could do it cheaper of course, but as I'm learning all the time; the importance of using the right components and specialsts is what gives the best result!

Edited April 25, 2008 by sandy309

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

sounds fine by me, ive had a few people say why not fit 84 so to get just over but i know if anyone did enquire im not gonna lie and dont wana risk it which is why ive looked so much into the msa rules regarding blocks etc

 

How do you mean "Which i dont wanna give away"

 

Dont start anythin on my short engine jus yet, will see how competitive i am against this 400bhp BMW E36 this year first

[Batfink 201]

he wont say what they are from. His trade secret....