Tran X Vs Quaife Lsd - Which One Into Which 205 ?

[RonnieG 0]

Choices, Choices……

 

I was recently offered at a good price two used Limited Slip Diffs - I examined them both, looked in really good condition and handed over my cash.....

 

Both are approx 2 yrs old - One is a Tran X plate diff & the other one is a Quaife ATB Diff.

 

My problem is which diff to use in which 205 ??

 

I currently run two 205 Gti's which both have BE3 gearboxes, neither has power steering and neither is road legal or ever used on the road.

 

The first is stripped out, lowered Bilstein suspension, has a standard Mi16 engine & gearbox with Catcam inlet cam, Yokohama A048's and is used on the track only.

 

My second one is stripped out, still has it's standard Gti 1.6 engine & gearbox and is used for purely non tarmac events - Mainly Autocrossing and that sort of off road fun stuff. Autocrossing is timed though so it's still well competitive......

 

After using the search option on this forum my initial 'steer' was to use the Quaife Diff on the track car due to the Quaife's characteristic of always requiring one wheel on the ground to work as an LSD but as even in Autocrossing one wheel is hardly ever off the ground now I'm not so sure !?!?

 

What do you reckon guys - Which Diff do you think I should put into which car ????

[andychalmers 0]

The Quaife is a maintenance free diff that works pretty well, I would put that in the tarmac track car. The Quaife will feel like its a standard diff to drive without power steering. The trax X are adjustable & need servicing say each year depanding how many miles you do. This is a better diff and would suit the loose surface better. The diffs are tighter than the Quaife and will feel a bit harder to drive (not so noticable on loose surfaces), mine used to want to pull straight & clunked when turning tightly, but still ok to drive with non PAS.

Give Skip browns a ring on 01829 720492, these know everything there is to know.

[tom_m 0]

^ what he said ^

[James_R 3]

I'd just not buy the ATB at all and buy a second TranX, having tried out both, there's no contest

 

Did you still have the clunk after the diff was broken in and new driveshafts Andy? I had the same with mine till I put in new shafts then it was well.

[andychalmers 0]

James, this is all from memory from about 5 yrs ago, it came in a rally car I bought. I did a couple of events with tranX then did a championship where I had to use a Quaife diff, 205 challenge 1600's. I swapped the diff & clunking went with it using same shafts. At the time I was a new rally driver & suppose could'nt tell the difference between the diffs. The clunking was only on say car park tight lock at low speeds & never noticed whilst driving. I've had to run a standard diff for the past 3 yrs in another rally car (standard 1400 XS) and even tho I dont miss the diff (everyone in my class has to run standard diffs) as makes it cheaper (if you dont brake ur diff). I was unsure about this rule at first but no-one as far as im aware in 4 yrs has broken a diff plus I regularly won my championship class & usally came 3rd in overall class with some big powered modifeid 1400s . I spun the Crown wheel as only pressed on. Back to topic. Im building a monster 205 rally car and if I stick to the pug box I'll deffo go with the Tran X but the VTEC option is tempting if I can source a good close ratio 6 speed box. Even then I'll probably fit a Tran X.

[16v205 9]

My tran-x doesnt clunk or knock and bang?

 

Ive had 1.6 & 1.9 205 shafts and currently 309 shafts and no problems. The diff has been in a 1.6 and gti-6 box and a fair bit of grinding needed to be done to both the box and the diff cover to make it clear, but its never knocked while turning.

 

Rich

[RonnieG 0]

Thanks for your replies guys - I called Skip Browns too !

 

The more research I do into this the more I think the Quaife ATB is really a diff that will deliver say 75% of the traction that a plate diff will deliver but to use a common phrase 'You wont know it's there' whereas on the road a plate diff is likely to take a bit more living with as regards steering/minimal maintenance but really grip when you need it too in any environment....

 

If all things were equal for me I agree with posts above - Use the Quaife on tarmac/track & Tran X for off-road.

 

I'm now realising that I am more biased than I thought and it's more towards getting the most out of my track 205 and on reading various posts from JamesR, Visa16V, Miles amongst others it's plain to see the preference for the Grip, Turn-in & general characteristics of the Tran X/Plate diffs win hands down over the ATB diffs and I'm kinda reluctant to put the Quaife in my track car.

 

I'm trying to build/compete in 2 cars so moneys tight and lucky to have two LSD's at all so I'm keen to use the Quaife this year.

 

I know that the Quaife will not work with a broken driveshaft or if one wheel is off the ground but what I'm thinking now is just how much difference would there be in the level of traction in purely Autocross/Off-road events between the Tran-X and the Quaife ? I'm wondering if the Quaife would have say 50%, 75% or even 90% of the traction of the Tran-X here ?

 

Any thoughts or experiences on this one??

 

Cheers !!

[Alan_M 66 1 Cars]

Totally off-topic but how do you get on with the A048's and the infamous Mi16 oil surge?

 

As for the diff, I went for a Trans-X diff after word from Miles, JamesR and others on here. JamesR's 205 was mightily impressive round the 'Ring with it in.

[Alastairh 47]

My tran-x doesnt clunk or knock and bang?

 

Mine never did.

 

When out at the ring last July with Bono (Matt with the 306 maxi) i found his horrific. I personally couldn't stand that, but mine was totally civilsed.

 

Al

[VisaGTi16v 1]

The best option may be to sell the quaife, you would get £350 or so on ebay if its in good nick, then miss out one track day and you have the extra needed to get a second plate one

 

Alan: I was running 48r's and then slicks the last 2 years in sprints and the odd trackday, no blow up yet just with a pts baffle however since fitting a standalone warning light set at 25psi it came on to much for my liking at a twisty sprint, 3 seconds on one hairpin! so I have just received back a extended oil pickup from PeterT and I will be changing the sump or fitting another spacer to get another half litre of oil in, not much more I can do then other than dry sump/gti6 but ive had my moneys worth, 5 years of competing in a 90k engine that came out of a £250 bx heh

[James_R 3]

I'll say I find my palte diff more docile on the road than ATB's I've driven, when you plant your foot, they just pull forward, ATB's seems to "hunt" for grip is the best way to describe it they pull you around as they seem to shift power from one wheel to the other.

 

The clonking shafts, yeah I found mine really bad when I first got it, sounds horrific at Donny tight turn out the paddocks, but once it was used a bit was fine, also put new/recon shafts in and was fine.

 

Slightly worn shafts which are fine with an open diff seem to get highlighted as not so good with a plate in. Think Bono's are mega milage and he's not willing to accept they need new CV's I imagine, also not sure what his ramping was set up like :s

 

I'm going to an even more agressive ramp on mine now, but fitting PAS to boot.

[VisaGTi16v 1]

Ive nearly binned my thing a couple of times driving to events when I decided to give it a bit of stick on a roundabout as its nearly driven my up the inside curb! On a track however when at 100% I have never noticed anything at all, inside wheel still spins away, no pulling of the steering wheel and I really question what if anything the quaife is doing. A good example of this is when I last went to Lydden and coming out of the top hair pin. In this clip, I was quite gentle on the throttle and powered out fine. If you look at the same corner in this later full run video about 50 seconds in, I gave it more stick and it just spun the inside wheel up something chronic. Surely it should have transferred the power to the outside one and eventually lit both up or power understeered off to the outside but it didnt, stayed on the same line and just spun the inside wheel which is what the standard diff used to do so.......

[James_R 3]

Think a "ATB are rubbish" facebook group needs starting by the sounds of it.

 

Although could blame your sus set up for not holding the inside wheel on the ground well enough, rear too soft front too hard comparitively.

 

Diff will make up for deficentcies (sp??) in sus set up, but not make them go away, treat the cause not the symptom and all that. ATB's can be good, have a friend who swears by his, he's the only one, but the his car is fully corner weighted fully coilovered and has very well "developed" sus, certainly behond most other stuff I've seen and has no issues.

 

so maybe we're bring a little harsh on ATB's maybe they only work when the sus is on form, like synergy rather than doing something good in its own right. Plate diff's seem to cover larger holes in sus set up, but equally I think give better gains when on good sus (although I bet the difference is minimal)

 

 

Can someone with an ATB try something though, put one wheel on the grass and one on the tarmac, and try pulling off sharpish. I've done this with the plate, and I still pull away pretty well, virtually no steering correction needed, wonder if an aTB can manage the same :s

[kyepan 291]

I can give that a go later on...

 

Was always under the assumption that plate diffs ripped peoples arms off, not the other way around, or does this depend on the ramp angle? Fiddling with it in forza would lead me to assume it might.

 

The ATB in mine weights the steering up, intially it was odd to get the steering applying force to you, when accelerating but got used to it. The only time anyones had a problem with it was when my girlfriends dad tried to floor it in second while coming off a heavily cambered roundabout... one handed. I shall try and replicate that tonight also.

 

Traction in the dry coming out of corners is much improved, mid corner application of throttle now causes the car to corner harder, not run wide. After six months of use it's become a subtle aspect of the car's handelling, rather than the ovbious feature when it was installed.

 

Traction in the wet is improved as long as your not very heavy footed , if you do just light both wheels up completely, your in no diff land, it doesn't give you extra grip, just uses the grip you have better.. once again using the throttle to control the direction of the car

 

I would like to try a plate diff set up with a mild ramp, to compare... cough sarty cough.

 

meow

 

J

Edited April 3, 2008 by kyepan

[Anthony 1,003]

Was always under the assumption that plate diffs ripped peoples arms off, not the other way around, or does this depend on the ramp angle? Fiddling with it in forza would lead me to assume it might.

It's a common misconception, no doubt propagated by internet mechanics who've never driven one and are just going by what they've been told

 

Certainly plate diffs like Tran-X's with mild ramp angles are very doscille and no harder to drive that something like a Quaife. From memory I think the two Tran-X equipped 205's I've driven have had a 30/60 setup on them.... I'm sure James will confirm as his is one of them. Until driving them, I thought the same as you based on what I'd heard, but the reality was very different and I was pleasantly surprised just how easy to drive it is.

 

With agressive ramp angles I believe it's much more hard work and you ideally need PAS, but I've not driven one to comment.

[James_R 3]

the ramp and slippage to more of an extend detemine the rip your arms off factor of the diff, and the power the engine puts out.

 

It's hard fast they respond and how much they try to pull the steering straight.

 

The diff's we're talking about are 40% jobs I think mines set to 45/45, I'll have to doubt check that though. ramp angle is how fast it bites and the % slippage or there abouts.

 

90% diff however are a slightly different kettle of fish, want to get one, but not sure the car's in need of one just yet, plus I like being able to park and manouvre currently and drive it on the road.

 

Hi amounts of castor, now that's PAS needing.

[VisaGTi16v 1]

James you are right, the rear is to soft and front to hard but only 190lb springs so not exactly that hard compared to what a lot of track users have, I cant run to stiff as I do a lot of bumpy airfield events. I just find it weird how it can snatch on the road sometimes but when im at 100% I dont feel it doing much thats all. Changing my entire suspension before the car comes back out again so hopefully it will be better

[kyepan 291]

It's a common misconception, no doubt propagated by internet mechanics who've never driven one and are just going by what they've been told

good thing i'm a forza mechanic not an internet mechanic

[James_R 3]

Visa - that the rear's I'm guessing? tarmac stuff? with bumps or gravel stuff with jumps??

 

PTS opted for 23mm torsion bars on their tarmac wally cars, which is higher than that, I havent' got the links to calulate/estimate the spring rate at work, but it's somewhere on here. I know what works for circuit, not so much for sprinting.

 

answer's on a postcard, bet at 100% it's not doing much sort of like a middle management affair flaps about most of the time, then when it's time to actually sort something out they fall over

[VisaGTi16v 1]

Nope the front. Visa runs rear trailing arms with 1:1 ratio coil overs as standard but I forget the spring rate, its to soft anyway. I only do tarmac sprints on tracks or airfields but some of them can be bumpy, I will be putting the front up to 230-240 ish not decided yet and stiffening the rear up a lot. It used to be a lot stiffer and I softened it but too much doh! Camber and castor will also be changed as I have some rj'd lower arms now as well

[James_R 3]

I meant as in you can calc the spring rate for the PTS set up on 205's and then order said springs for the visa, 225 fronts I know that much, rear's I'm not sure about. what ARB set up does the Visa run??

 

(sorry for thread hijack)

[tom_m 0]

Can someone with an ATB try something though, put one wheel on the grass and one on the tarmac, and try pulling off sharpish. I've done this with the plate, and I still pull away pretty well, virtually no steering correction needed, wonder if an aTB can manage the same :s

 

it spins the wheel on the grass, been there done that

[Batfink 201]

i dont truely understand ramp angles. Can someone tell me what an agressive setting is

 

Visagti16v My brother ran 180lb springs on the rear of his 205 and that seemed good with ao48's. That was with 280lb fronts. Initially the car was setup with 140lb springs but this was way too soft. i'd swap the 190lb to the rear and see how it feels

Edited April 3, 2008 by Batfink

[VisaGTi16v 1]

heh threadjacking! James, not sure on roll bar diameters, going to measure them all up and will also try and work out the rear of the 205 settings. Batfink, slightly differnet diameter unfortunately, I had some on it that were LOL hard back in the day, 400lb or something, it did lift a rear wheel more back then, now I think they are something like 150lb so need to be somewhere inbetween those two with the fronts 230 odd to come into line with the 205 tarmac cars and maybe a bit stiffer as except for the odd rougher runway, most is smooth, more so than roads. When it comes back out probably early next year then hopefully I can report better things on the quaife when I have the suspension set up properly

 

The atb will just spin the wheel on the grass as there will be no grip and therefore no torque to bias against which thinking about it could be why I dont see much improvement, if the inside front is unweighting to much then there will be less torque for the quaife to transfer and so it wont be that effective

[James_R 3]

i dont truely understand ramp angles. Can someone tell me what an agressive setting is

 

google pulled up;

http://www.minimania.com/web/SCatagory/GEA...67/ArticleV.cfm

 

 

spring rates on the back also need to factor in the roll bar size used too, I'm aiming at 400lbs/inch a side on the rear of mine, and 300 on the nose.