4 Days Before The First Hill - Engine Out Again :(

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

So yesterday i finally got the race engine fully built and in the 205, it was all plumbed in, shafts in, carbs on, wired up etc etc, put the engine oil in, great no leaks, put the gearbox oil in, again no leaks, starts puttin the coolant in and its comin out half the speed im puttin it in GUTTED!!

 

i should have inspected the block with a fine tooth comb before i used it really, some gash **** who fitted that block to the 205 i took it from hadn't put in the small spacer aswel as the extra larger one for the top left head bolt and so when torqueing the bolt, because it didnt have that smaller spacer in, has dug into the water housing below where the bottom of the olt pops out of the block and so has punctured a hole in the thin alloy. NOT VERY AMUSED!!

 

so the engine has to come out tomorrow and be welded and then fitted all over again with 3 days to go til the first meeting and the engine hasnt even been started yet so cant say there wont be any other teething problems

 

kinda startin to go crazy with the amount of hours ive put into this engine and car!! UNBELEIVABLE

[danpug 1]

Ahhh thats bad luck, similar to the luck i always have with cars.

[Anthony 1,003]

Chemical metal is a surprisingly effective medium-long term fix for that problem, and you can apply it without removing the headbolt and with leaving the engine etc in place...

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

Chemical metal is a surprisingly effective medium-long term fix for that problem, and you can apply it without removing the headbolt and with leaving the engine etc in place...

 

 

 

I have a feeling you are talking from experience here Ant.....???

 

Maxi

[Anthony 1,003]

I have a feeling you are talking from experience here Ant.....???

Yup, exactly the same issue as above - previous owner had missed out the headbolt spacer and thus of course coolant poured out of the resulting hole. I filled the hole with chemical metal, left it 24 hours to dry, and then filled the engine with coolant and never had any further problem in the few months and 10k miles that I had that engine. I know of several other people that have successfully employed this method, again, with no problem.

 

The only real pre-requisites that I can see is that you'll have to clean the oil and gunge from the area, and make sure that it's only a hole and no cracking of the alloy - it's not a particularly stressed part of the casting from what I can see, but if it's cracked then it'll inevitably fail again eventually through heat cycling enlarging the crack.

 

It's certainly not an elegant fix and difficult to argue that it's not a major bodge, but if it works and you've limited time....

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

I'm with Anthony on this one too. Don't consider it a bodge; it's a far more effective repair than welding. It's easier, it's less likely to be screwed up and everyone I spoke to reassured me it would be just as safe and effective. My block has the fix in it too, using some metal-based epoxy. I splashed out on some rather expensive epoxy that was best part of £60 for a little pot, but it works fine. I would take onboard the comments above though re: cleaning, cracks, etc.

Edited March 20, 2008 by brumster

[DamirGTI 342]

True this is your friend :

http://www.wyko.co.uk/adhesives/metal_filled_compounds.asp

 

Theres a lot of different brands such as Loctite , Permatex , Bison etc. etc. just ask liquid/chemical metal compound , or epoxy metal compound .. this stuff has became popular in last few years as it's kind of "substitute for welding" , quick repair doesn't generate a heat and without the need for dismantling the engine/gearbox - cold weld try it out , you can even buy high temp. resistant compound .. I've been repairing cracked gearbox cases with this stuff ..

 

Regards !

Damir

[Peetypug 5]

i drove my gti for 18 months with this done to it (god knows how long it had been like that)

i didnt even know until i took the engine out of the car and started to clean it up

so i think its just as good as welding, i suppose the only thing could be that yours is a race engine and may run a lot hotter than standard

but as anthony has said

it's not a particularly stressed part of the casting from what I can see, but if it's cracked then it'll inevitably fail again eventually through heat cycling enlarging the crack.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

it does sound the simpler solution but seein as its extremely difficult to get you cannot be sure that you have it perfectly gunge free and so can ensure 100% success in it not leaking, the engine is now half stripped anyway and like said above i really dont know the extent of the damage, it could be more than jus a little puncture, if so i think my safest bet is welding, it'll only take me and a mate tomorrow to whip the engine out weld it ip and fit it back and then atleast its not in the back of mind that it could start leakin in the middle of a meeting or somethin!!

 

if it was simply for a road car id definitely go down the chemical metal route but for the fact of a days hard work between us that will result in peace of mind then im happy, just glad to hear (well u know what i mean) its happened to others before and CAN actually be salvagable!!

 

thanc for teh feedback, ill let you know how it all goes

 

ill probbaly be doubly safe, weld and layer some chemical metal on top

[Alastairh 47]

The only real pre-requisites that I can see is that you'll have to clean the oil and gunge from the area, and make sure that it's only a hole and no cracking of the alloy - it's not a particularly stressed part of the casting from what I can see, but if it's cracked then it'll inevitably fail again eventually through heat cycling enlarging the crack.

 

It's certainly not an elegant fix and difficult to argue that it's not a major bodge, but if it works and you've limited time....

 

Thought id re quote you Ant with putting no cracking in bold.

 

*sigh* Crappy 8 valves

[base-1 17]

it's a far more effective repair than welding.

 

While I can see epoxy working fine, that is simply untrue! TIG'ing it to repair it will retain strength, prevent damage that is there getting worse and provide a perfect seal. You can't guarantee any of that from an epoxy...

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

I only mean for this particular repair - blocking a hole up - I don't mean instead of welding in general. Effective is probably the wrong word - let's say 'appropriate'. 'Suitable'.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Well its all sorted now, very glad we took the engine back out as was quite a big hole, we decided it would be safer to take the water pump out aswel so teh weld can be done properly, thank god we did, chunks of alloy were just floatin around the pump blades, the head bolt had actually punctured and taped a perfect whole straight throu the water housing, there was no cracking at all.

 

so its now been professionally welded and also we added one more of the small spacers to the head bolt to raise it slightly further, this meant the bolt was flush with the bottom of the threads in the block so worked out well, as an extra precaution we filled that whole section flush with the outer edge with chemical metal, better to be safe than sorry!!

 

a job well done

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

ok on to the next problem, got her started this mornin, very lumpy and rough so obviously need a tuning in BUT i then realised ANOTHER coolant leak, this time is was comin from under the carbs, so removed the carbs i found that there is 2 small water holes which are blanked off by the manifold but because there was a recess due to corrosion in that past from these water channel on my manifold it wasnt sealing so the water was comin out and worst of all leaking into the inlet chambers and filling them up, luckily i caught it before the engine hydraulic't

 

WHAT EVER NEXT!!

 

so out coems teh chemical metal again to fill the manifold so its flush

 

has anyone else done anythin to plug these coolant holes or have they just relied on the gasket and mani sealing them?!

[DamirGTI 342]

ok on to the next problem, got her started this mornin, very lumpy and rough so obviously need a tuning in BUT i then realised ANOTHER coolant leak, this time is was comin from under the carbs, so removed the carbs i found that there is 2 small water holes which are blanked off by the manifold but because there was a recess due to corrosion in that past from these water channel on my manifold it wasnt sealing so the water was comin out and worst of all leaking into the inlet chambers and filling them up, luckily i caught it before the engine hydraulic't

 

WHAT EVER NEXT!!

 

so out coems teh chemical metal again to fill the manifold so its flush

 

has anyone else done anythin to plug these coolant holes or have they just relied on the gasket and mani sealing them?!

 

 

No , do not do that ! leave the holes , just reseal the manifold with new gasket and with a little bit of sealant on it :

smear some sealant on the gasket and work it in (rub) with your fingers in order to "soak" it with the sealant , don't use too much of sealant , just enough to soak in the gasket (you'll know when it's enough when the gasket changes color from light to dark gray and became tacky) ..

You can use ordinary clear silicone or mechanic RTV sealant , what ever you like ..

 

Regards !

Damir

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

ok great thanx, i have some proper loctite liquid gasket so like you said ill smear a layer of that on the gasket until its tacky then fit it all back

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

THE LEAK IS BACK...........AAARRRRRGGGGHHHHHH

 

out comes the chemical metal again, i think cause the engine got hot from the hillclimb and then the other nite it got very cold here the metal has contracted slightly so cause a little leak again, i thinkin this cause it took about 3 days to start leakin after id run the engine hot and it was a particularly cold night

 

so cleanin it up again and gonan pack it right out with a load of chemical metal today and see what happens, if by sunday mornin when i test it and it still leaks the engine is comin back out for another proper patch job

 

what a pain!!

[petert 588]

While I can see epoxy working fine, that is simply untrue! TIG'ing it to repair it will retain strength, prevent damage that is there getting worse and provide a perfect seal. You can't guarantee any of that from an epoxy...

 

I used to think like that until I met Belzona.

 

http://www.belzona.com/

Edited March 29, 2008 by petert

[gti_al 1]

Is that the stuff that is crazy expensive? By the time my block was blasted and patched up with that i could have bought one of magic's spares...

[petert 588]

Expensive yes, but when you can repair something in situ., like a sump breakage, without labour costs, it becomes very cost effective. Imagine putting a bolt back into a broken casting, then being able to undo the bolt later. I was truly amazed after speaking with one of their reps and seeing the stuff in action. My friend uses it in Mi16 heads to repair the lip under the valve seats, caused by core shifts during the casting process. Imagine the cost in taking the seats out, welding up the ports, then remachining? And it's guarenteed not to fall out like other epoxies.

[taffycrook 2]

Used by the MOD.

I was involved in a Battle Damage repair program that tested this stuff.

A landrover was rescued from a tank range and we had to get it going again, plenty of E metal was used on the block, head and castings damaged by small arms fires as well as anti tank missiles.

Very effective, I have used it at -20 to 50 dgrees. Worth every penny.

[madaxgt 0]

Which Belzona product would you say is best for say cylinder head intake ports?

 

Apologies for the thread jack.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

no worries

 

ive re-used a load of chemical metal on my block, its been setting for 4 days now but really im just scared of testing it incase it still leaks and the engine has to come back out!!

[petert 588]

Which Belzona product would you say is best for say cylinder head intake ports?

 

Apologies for the thread jack.

 

I think it's the 1111, but I'll check for you.