Honda Vti 1600 16v Into A 205 Rally Car?

[andychalmers 0]

After considering many engine options for my 205 rally car Im pretty stuck on the Honda VTI 1600 16V B16 engine.

180bhp standard with throttle bodies! Good gearbox options!

I know sandy has done a Honda into a 309 and thanks Sandy for the advise.

Once the engine is in it will be the cheapest and best option plus the 1600 engine is capable of 230BHP for a few grand

 

Has anyone ever done 1 of these before?

And whats everyones thoughts?

[hodgy 0]

main thing is it will sound amazing once vtec kicks in as i love that noise. only thing is ive noticed with these engines is there 180 bhp yeah but thats only once vtec has kicked in. untill they get to 6000rpm there proper poo!!

[Sandy 191]

With proper mapping and bodies, the power delivery changes completely. I've found that Honda deliberately set the switching point high on the older cars, to accentuate the VTEC point.

[aeinstein 0]

i thought 1.6 vti has 167 bhp.

 

the 1.8 (like out of the 5 door vti) is 180 or something.

 

i stand to be proved wrong though.

 

al

 

edit to say

 

180bhp standard with throttle bodies!

 

i wish i would read posts properly 1st time!

Edited March 12, 2008 by aeinstein

[Dj_mini 7]

Will you be ok with rally regulations having a honda lump rather than pug?

[monty69 6]

At least there not made of chocolate like the xu! If all cars were jap id be out of a job.

[welshpug 1,657]

the XU isnt that bad, and the honda lump aint perfect

 

 

is it worth spending the money on the conversion when you could spend it on the XU to make it more powerful and reliable?

Edited March 12, 2008 by welshpug

[monty69 6]

the XU isnt that bad, and the honda lump aint perfect

 

 

is it worth spending the money on the conversion when you could spend it on the XU to make it more powerful and reliable?

I havnt seen a s16 that hasnt had bottom end knocking. TU and xu head gaskets,dodgy liners, bad breathing, OIL SURGE oil leaks from head the list goes on. Never has to do any head gaskets or engine problems on jap motors, NOT ONE in 8 years. If i had the skill and patience like sandy id put in a vtec and throw the xu in the bin, real dogger!

Edited March 12, 2008 by monty69

[base-1 17]

I havnt seen a s16 that hasnt had bottom end knocking. TU and xu head gaskets,dodgy liners, bad breathing, OIL SURGE oil leaks from head the list goes on. Never has to do any head gaskets or engine problems on jap motors, NOT ONE in 8 years. If i had the skill and patience like sandy id put in a vtec and throw the xu in the bin, real dogger!

Never seen an S16 without bottom ends gone? Can't have seen many then! Are those problems all engines you've seen or ones you've built?

 

And you've never had any engine problems with any Jap engines in 8 years? Maybe people don't get you to fix them? I agree that Japanese engines are generally better than French engines a decade older, but apart from not really being a fair comparison, the way you make out all XU'd to be toss and all Jap engines bulletproof is complete bollocks

[niklas 1]

Wouldn't it be easier to just buy a Honda? Better engines, better suspension and often light 'n rusty...

[James_m 0]

the XU isnt that bad, and the honda lump aint perfect

 

 

is it worth spending the money on the conversion when you could spend it on the XU to make it more powerful and reliable?

 

Are the clamps around the top of the liners there maybe because it ran boost?

Could probably do that to a stock XU easily enough

Sounds like an excellent idea if you feel confident with custom mounts etc

Personally im sick of these chocolate XU's....

[VisaGTi16v 1]

Sprinted for 5 years with a few track days in my 1.9 Mi XU using slicks that was on 90k when I got it, still in one bit although I would probably expect a Honda to go on for a bit longer but they are not immune. I recall watching one of the Jap best of motoring shows dedicated to the vtec and even the techy bloke from Honda was saying you shouldnt take a ITR on the track with slicks without baffling it properly, no different to a XU

[boldy205 75]

Funny how people are all so nasty about all this!! Yea a honda lump is more reliable/powerfull but is a decade newer aswell. Think what cars were like 20 years ago!! Personaly i would rather get Jap car with the right engine and race that if the XU bothers you that much due to all the parts needed tobe boght/fabricated to fit the Honda lump.

Just my opinion

[whizzer71 0]

Jap engineering IS simply awesome,but their styling and dodgy hard plastic interiors NASTY multifunction stalk switches and lack of panache make them a BIG no go area for me,I had a Evo Mitsy for a while, fantastic to drive went like no 205 Ive ever owned but and a big BUT was no where near as much fun to drive ! (& the insurance was stupidly expensive)

 

[GLPoomobile 958]

1 - All this talk of Jap engines being more reliable and it being an unfair comparison? Irrelevant IMO. The OP has proposed using a Honda B16, an engine that was introduced in 1989 IIRC, so how is that a decade newer?

2 - I don't recall much, if any, talk of D series, B series, H series or F series Honda engines suffering badly from surge or dodgy bottom ends when I used loiter around that scene, and plenty of the guys over here take track days just as seriously as the many 205 drivers on here do (I'm not discounting what the Honda techs themselves recommend with regards to baffling the sump, just saying it's not something that seems to be encountered most owners)

3 - Just buy a Jap car? Where would the fun be in that? I love Hondas but would rather a 205 any day!

4 - Fecking go for it my son If you've got the money to do it then why the hell not? Too many people too eager to advise taking the same well worn path IMO.

 

There's plenty of other reasons why a Honda engine would be a great choice, which someone like Sandy is in a far better position to discuss.

[welshpug 1,657]

time to get the welder and angle grinder out, I'd love to see how it turns out

[Sandy 191]

I was going to say GLP, the Mi16, B-series and H-series VTEC engines were all launching within 2 years of each other. When you get a Honda engine apart and look at the quality and manufacturing precision of the components, it's in another league to Peugeot engines, which themselves are generally quite advanced. The EW is technically the closest Peugeot engine to the early VTEC engines and it's, cough, not exactly reliable! I've owned three VTEC Honda Accord's from new, totaling about 330,000 miles between them, ragged them all to the limit daily and never had a murmur from the drivetrains. I can't imagine giving an XU engine that much abuse, it simply would not take it!

 

Look at the economics of it too. My H22A7 cost me £2000~ with close ratio LSD box/shafts etc, it was 209bhp/159lbft as standard. Add DTA management and bodies (approx £1600) and it's immediately giving 230+bhp/189lbft and it still averages 33mpg. You won't get that sort of power from an XU engine for less than about £5000-6000, let alone the fabulous gearbox, "free" LSD etc and it will be thirstier, need periodic rebuilds and probably leak alot of oil for good measure!

Fitting a Honda engine isn't easy, don't let me kid you about that, but it's easier than trying to inject Honda quality/reliability/power into a Peugeot engine and box.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

No need to echo what's already been said; go for it - although I would play it safe and ring the MSA and check it will be okay. My understanding of all this K37 rubbish (which is now H, of course!) is vague and I've heard conflicting reports. So I'd just ring them to be safe. My understanding was that the block had to be externally identifiable as a one available in that model, but the BB doesn't reflect this in the amendments for next year. Otherwise, cracking plan - missus had an S2000 and that was a beauty of an engine.

[SPGTi 2]

Why not just get one of these

 

 

Civic type R JDM 1996 to 2000 (I think)

About £6 - 7000

1.6 16v - 180bhp as standard

close ratio box and LSD as std

Proper rear suspension

 

 

Steve

Edited March 13, 2008 by SPGTi

[rescue dude 0]

Will you be ok with rally regulations having a honda lump rather than pug?

 

 

I don't think he will be.

[Rob Thomson 6]

I don't think he will be.

I think he will be!

 

The MSA have tightened up the regs a lot lately, but they're still extremely flexible when compared with most other forms of motorsport in the UK. I've lost a lot of interest in rallying lately, but I remember when the new regs were being discussed/consulted there was no mention of the hundreds of Vauxhall engined Mk2s out there being banned... The only reg you'll need to be careful of is something about no major modifications to the main structure of the bodyshell, but the concensus was that minor localised alterations to allow the fitment of different powerplants would be fine. I'm 99.9% sure you'd be fine with a Honda engine in a 205, but I guess it's worth getting it in writing from the MSA before you start cutting things about.

[VisaGTi16v 1]

Hmm S2000 powered Escort, now theres a good idea heh

[Powers 13]

Look at the economics of it too. My H22A7 cost me £2000~ with close ratio LSD box/shafts etc, it was 209bhp/159lbft as standard. Add DTA management and bodies (approx £1600) and it's immediately giving 230+bhp/189lbft and it still averages 33mpg. You won't get that sort of power from an XU engine for less than about £5000-6000, let alone the fabulous gearbox, "free" LSD etc and it will be thirstier, need periodic rebuilds and probably leak alot of oil for good measure!

Fitting a Honda engine isn't easy, don't let me kid you about that, but it's easier than trying to inject Honda quality/reliability/power into a Peugeot engine and box.

 

My sentiments exactly.

It will be alot of work though, especially to do things "right" and safe especially if you intend to use it for rallying.

I doubt 230bhp can be achieved in an NA application for just a few grand, but feel free to prove me wrong. 200 bhp would be more than adequate.

 

 

You want to ask jonnie205 about S2000 powered Escorts.

Edited March 13, 2008 by Powers

[danpug 1]

Sandy's already proved it with his

[mfield 20]

Sandy's already proved it with his

 

Powers was talking about the 1600 lump from the first post not Sandys 2200 if i'm not mistaken.