Highest Whp Xu9j"x" Turbo ?

[petert 585]

Peter what tyres do you run? Are you talking about a road or track car?

 

I was referring to the Yoko A032's on my track car. My point being another 100hp might take 1 sec. off lap times, another 200hp 1.5 secs. and so on. So for me, it's really not about getting the most hp. As said, everyone gets their kicks different ways. Thank goodness we're all different.

 

The other issue with a 500+hp engine is getting it to the driveshafts. I guess you'll be using an ML or ME gearbox?

[Issam 0]

I guess you'll be using an ML or ME gearbox?

Well the whole point of this thread was to figure out what breaks and what does not.

 

So far I have accomplished 2 goals.

* Head studs - I know now I can get them

* Block - Iron - so I am good to go there.

* Turbocharger,wastegate etc I have all organised.

 

What I need now is drawings of the flanges or else I will have to do that up myself as well as what goes on in the gearbox area.

[Henry 1.9GTi 36]

220bhp is not nothing....? ok maybe from an all out engine capabilty point of view, my friends golf has 220 bhp and goes like stink, but more important is the way it puts the power down, tuned suspension and a LSD help but its been set up really well. Atm my pug with say ~ 180bhp is a load of crap as any steering lock will see the wheels spinning even in 4th.

And having done a trackday in it I would have sacrificed power for better chassis setup, but then i suppose if you can afford 600bhp u can afford a decent all round setup as well.

 

I would also say that 600bhp is a bit much for FWD in a 4WD car then yes go for it. But a sub 900kg tin box with FWD, id rather spend my money on other things

 

Although granted if I had the money why not go for 600bhp just for the hell of it really.

[Sam 4]

Has anyone who's commented actually driven a well setup high HP fwd car or are they just passing on the usual internet mechanic style material we see day after day?

[Henry 1.9GTi 36]

ive driven a well set up 220bhp fwd car and it is a joy but I'm thinking 220bhp isnt high hp in this thread.

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

My 205 is not really "high power" either (260-270bhp), it will wheelspin 3'rd gear running a quaife LSD and Yoko A048 semislick tyres.

However after I got the tracking set properly it's now very controllable even when wheelspinning, and it's no problem using full throttle in 4'th and 5'th gear, which you really will do if you're trying to set quick lap times on a long track.

 

So more power will help out in 4'th and 5'th

[Issam 0]

Has anyone who's commented actually driven a well setup high HP fwd car or are they just passing on the usual internet mechanic style material we see day after day?

I was beginning to wonder....I have customers who have 380+whp FWD and they love it.If the car is set up to handle the power then it can be a very fun combination.

 

Ok guys I didnt mean to start a riff raff..I am looking for solutions.Not questions as to who when where why how....

 

This is what I am doing and I need solutions to achieve that.So whats available for gearboxes and such?

Edited March 19, 2008 by Issam

[niklas 1]

Here in Sweden it's not too uncommon with autotech-tuned Volvo 850's producing 400+ bhp. They seem to work pretty well but I imagine it would be beneficial to have a smoother power delivery on the track!

Besides most of the owners of such cars are more into 402m than using the steering wheel. However seeing them on track they just need one straight to keep up with a much quicker driver which drives fast through the bends as well!

 

Power is always a good thing, it can never be too much. But depending on the power delivery it can be easy or hard to use it all!

[bales 1]

My 205 is not really "high power" either (260-270bhp), it will wheelspin 3'rd gear running a quaife LSD and Yoko A048 semislick tyres.

However after I got the tracking set properly it's now very controllable even when wheelspinning, and it's no problem using full throttle in 4'th and 5'th gear, which you really will do if you're trying to set quick lap times on a long track.

 

So more power will help out in 4'th and 5'th

 

Surely this post kind of underlines what I guess is most peoples problem with building a fwd car with big power, if a n/a engine which is going to be fundamentally a lot less prone to wheelspin due to its power delivery in relation to a forced induction car - especially one with really! big power can't use the first 3 gears then you have to wonder whether you have gone past the point of what power is useful in a 205!!

 

Even if you have fancy electronics limiting boost on the lower gears to get traction then thats surely an indication that you may aswell just have less power. If the only gears usable are 4th and 5th then fundamentally is there any difference with having a modest spec engine and then stick 200bhp of nitrous through it in the higher gears!??

 

I remember speaking to an engine builder who did a lot of work with cosworths and was telling me about an big spec engine he built for an escort cosworth that was about 550bhp and many many ££s, and he said that the owner drove it and realised that it was a waste in a road car. I saw the power curve from the dyno and he was pointing out that it had about 170lb.ft of torque at about 3900rpm and then had about 420lb.ft at about 3905rpm!! (slight exagerration) but his point was that it was just undriveable as any engine that has such a huge step up in power and torque over a short range is always going to do bad things to the chassis! which I guess is a characteristic of small displcement engines with big turbos.

 

So 500bhp in fwd must be a little crazy

 

And I suppose what is my main issue is that if you spend huge amounts of money getting it able to use the power with trick diffs and fancy suspension and a massive engine build, what would you have been able to do with something like an s1 elise for the same money or something rwd, cos to me power oversteer is always going to be more entertaining than just trying to manage wheelspin and understeer round a track...

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Totally agree Balesy.

 

Let me stress, that I never dis'd anyone doing this; in fact I said from an engineering perspective, obtaining gobsmacking amounts of power from an engine is 'admirable'. There are spin-offs that will help in other areas.

 

But here's one of my analogies. It's like Tefal making an iron more and more powerful, such that it either melts the clothes or is too hot to even hold. The endeavours by the technicians in iron heating up technology must surely reach a point of what is practical and what is no good to anyone any more.

 

No, I'm not in the gang that's driven massive HP vehicles; but surely the commonly accepted norms and common sense say that 220-250HP plus through the front (and steering) wheels is getting to the point of unmanageable. Granted, in a straight line there are less demands, but it's still no good having a Tefal iron that you can't hold.

[bales 1]

but it's still no good having a Tefal iron that you can't hold.

 

I like that

 

Good analogy

[willxs 0]

I dont see why so many people are asking what the point of this build is.

 

It's his money that he's spending and im all for seeing 600bhp from an XU engine even if it may seem a waste in running it in a light fwd car. He seems pretty adament on building it so all this jargon about 'whats the point' to me seems pointless. He's hoping to find solutions to possible problems he'll encounter about building the engine, not about getting the traction or whatever.

 

 

 

Cheers, Will

[bales 1]

Don't think anyone has said that he is wrong for doing it, just that the thread has gone slightly off topic and turned into a discussion about the merits of big power in a fwd car with people putting across their opinions and experiences of this, surely it would be a crap forum if people couldn't express their opinion regardless of whether it is exactly what the original poster was wanting to find out.

 

Plus there isn't going to be a massive demographic of the forum who actually have much experience in putting 500-600bhp through a 205.....i'm guessing.

[Batfink 201]

i would say no-one has done it on this forum!

[McDude 33]

Well said bales - I wish I could have put it so eloquently myself.

 

Personally I've read this thread as a bit of a "you are all p00fs for not running 500+bhp - I pity your feeble British ways of thinking"

 

I think that's why there is a bit of a retort of "what's the point"

 

As a Powertrain Engineer I am always interested in what you can get away with, but in my view that is also where Engineers often fall down. Dr Sarty's example of an iron that burns clothes is spot on. In one way it would be the world's best iron i.e. the hottest. but in every other way it would not be fit for the purpose and the Engineer behind it missed the first and most critical part of design "the voice of the customer"

 

A 500+ bhp engine might win the p1ssing contest, but for most it would be as much use as t1ts on a bull. The voice of the customer in this case is saying "what's the point"

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

i would say no-one has done it on this forum!

 

A Norwegian 205 was at least converted with a T16 engine with a huge turbo and dynoed 450bhp.

It was hard to drive, but still no problem to control it, just harder than a low power one.

 

They could easily get wheelspin in 5'th gear no problem if they would hit the throttle too hard in hi-speed bends etc.

It surely was ridicously fast and no problem using it as both trackday car, and also for normal driving.

 

Pleasure with big turbos is they don't kick in until like 3500-4000rpm, so you can really drive it like a normal car as long as you keep it under the spool-up area

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

You don't put things so badly yourself McDude:

 

Personally I've read this thread as a bit of a "you are all p00fs for not running 500+bhp - I pity your feeble British ways of thinking"

 

In a nutshell!

 

I'm all for the excitement and challenge of doing this; it's fascinating stuff. It's just the manner in which it was done. I wish you the greatest luck Issam. I said earlier - or in the coil packs thread that went wrong - that you clearly have oodles of experience in blown motors, and perhaps general automotive engineering which can and will contribute to this forum. It's just the 'highest WHP' title alone is like starting a d*ck swinging contest, and all you've had amongst the engineering type replies is a sensible question of 'why would you do this?'. I think it's all in good order.

 

On the other hand, this thread has shown some considered thinking and maturity that I strongly believe is what makes this forum pretty damn smart.

Edited March 19, 2008 by DrSarty

[Batfink 201]

Issam. There is a good reason for asking whats it for and thats going to affect your options with the drivetrain,

If you are going to use it on the dragstrip I see a number of potential issues. If you are going to run slicks then this will put strain on the driveshafts and diff,

Certainly the diff will need to be upgraded.

I'd be interested to see if the be gearboxes can cope with so much power. Someone was telling me that the input shaft is a potential weak spot

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

The 205 with 450bhp I talked about was running a Peugeot Sport ZF diff in a 6 speed BE gearbox.

 

At least it have survived some trackdays by now, but I don't think it will last very long.

 

If the car is only for dragracing why not just get the standard diff TiG welded?

Also the driveshafts of the 205 mentioned did handle wheelspin in 5'th gear quite a few times.

 

But it's no doubt the parts will break, it's just a matter of time.

 

Should have mated it to a Audi FWD gearbox and put it in the rear Those boxes will handle lots of power.

[taylorspug 7]

The wheelspin wont be a problem i wouldnt have thought, its when something with that much torque grips and actually tries to transfer it to the road that its all going to break, so running it up a rubbered 1/4 with slicks on would be a good test. I will go for the diff blowing straight out of the casing as the first breakage!

 

As Black Mi has said it will break at some point, at least then you will know what bit to uprate next. The problem with drivetrains is that you jump from one weak link in the system to another when you uprate bits.

[Issam 0]

Should have mated it to a Audi FWD gearbox and put it in the rear Those boxes will handle lots of power.

Put 307whp through that 012 and 648whp through the 01E.Very solid gearboxes those are but alas they aint a pug

It's just the 'highest WHP' title alone is like starting a d*ck swinging contest

If thats how you percieved it then I can not help.I was looking for what people have done and what solutions they can offer.So far I have about 20 replies telling me that its pointless when I have driven and built track cars with upwards of 350whp.

I didnt ask for advice on Why I am doing what I am doing,I asked for advice on potential solutions to issues I WILL encounter.I am not here to piss in anyones coffee...I am here to help out and I enjoy this place.Lots of good guys here that make it enjoyable,knowledgeable and it is very mature but If I have to go out there and do everything bit by bit only to find questions that could have been answered then I am going to be disappointed.

 

So lets focus from the top and get this going,you can read through the list and realise what I have and what I need help with.

 

From the top:

* Turbo manifold - going to size up the flange and build a ramhorn for standard T3 Turbochargers with a T04S compressor housing.

* GT30XX turbocharger - have not decided which one as yet

* Intake manifold.Going to do the same and size up the flange,transition from square to cicular runners and runner a plenum similar to my Audi A4 intake manifold (see below) + a VAG OBD1 VR6 throttle body with 3-PIN TPS

* Block - will be Iron (not o-ringed)

* Head studs - ARP

* Pistons - JE Pistons - organised

* Cylinder head - It is going to be an 8V because thats what I have and thats what I will work with.If there is a company that sells valvetrain components besides Kent that would be great to give me the hook up.

* Connecting Rods - Does anyone know of a company that has these in forged?Whats the dimesions of the wrongs (big end,and length...wrist pin does not matter)

* Oil Pan - I will put a 10-AN fitting in a soda blasted aluminum pan I have

* Valve cover - will tap for a 10-AN fitting and run line to a catch can.

* Oil filter relocation kit as well as oil filler resevoir placed somewhere on the shock tower or fire wall.

* Engine management - 034EFI accompanied with EZ-wiring.will eliminate alot of the useless crap in the engine bay

* Flywheel - Mi16 unit

* Clutch system - Spec Stage 3+

 

 

As Black Mi has said it will break at some point, at least then you will know what bit to uprate next.

What exactly breaks and is there a solution for it?

Lets compare to the VW 02J gearboxes.Those need at least a set of gears from APTuning + a differential from Peloquin or Quaife to be made strong enough to track and handle decent power.

 

* Gearbox - 5 speed manual found in a 205?How strong on these?Whats needed to make them withstand the power?

[petert 585]

* Cylinder head - It is going to be an 8V because thats what I have and thats what I will work with.If there is a company that sells valvetrain components besides Kent that would be great to give me the hook up.

 

I was starting to take you seriously until I read that. With just 160-170cfm out of the average big valve head, I think you'll find it physically impossible to reach your goals. A 16V head flows over twice that straight out of the box. Let's consider that a well prepped T16 makes 450-500hp on 2 Bar. How much pressure will you need?

 

As I suggested earlier, the gearbox you need is an ME or ML type as fitted to T16's, turbo 8V's, V6's etc. A BE1 or BE3 from a 205 just won't cut it.

 

Buy a set of small block, small journal Chev rods, in what ever length you like and machine one side to remove the offset.

[bales 1]

If thats how you percieved it then I can not help.I was looking for what people have done and what solutions they can offer.So far I have about 20 replies telling me that its pointless when I have driven and built track cars with upwards of 350whp.

I didnt ask for advice on Why I am doing what I am doing,I asked for advice on potential solutions to issues I WILL encounter.I am not here to piss in anyones coffee...I am here to help out and I enjoy this place.Lots of good guys here that make it enjoyable,knowledgeable and it is very mature but If I have to go out there and do everything bit by bit only to find questions that could have been answered then I am going to be disappointed.

 

With all due respect you seem to be missing a few vital posts, as has been said no-one (or at least who have answered) have tuned and engine to this level.

 

So how do you expect factual solutions to problems that have never been encountered?? due mainly (I would guess) to the reasons that keep being outlined in the posts that you describe as saying that it is a pointless exercise.

[Batfink 201]

I was starting to take you seriously until I read that. With just 160-170cfm out of the average big valve head, I think you'll find it physically impossible to reach your goals. A 16V head flows over twice that straight out of the box. Let's consider that a well prepped T16 makes 450-500hp on 2 Bar. How much pressure will you need?

 

 

is this simple maths cos I reckon 4 bar though i'm worried you are asking a trick question lol

 

So if we are looking at making the most powerful 8v, you are going to have to look at lowering the bhp expectations. Its probably not going to be a match for the 450bhp T-16 already mentioned.

[GLPoomobile 958]

I felt compelled to write this as I can empathise with Issam's frustration at the way this topic has gone. I got home from holiday yesterday evening and spent hours catching up on unread replies on here. There were 5 new pages of replies to this topic and of those, only about half a page was relevant.

 

I think the focus of this topic really needs to return to the 'how to' as opposed to the 'why' nature that seems to be prevailing. It's a disappointing attitude when you consider that what makes this forum one of the best on the 'net is that we have members who push the boundaries and have a really great and diverse technical knowledge (and expertise of course).

 

F1 is is utterly pointless IMO (it's not even entertaining), but a lot of technology pioneered in F1 feeds down to road cars. There's plenty of ways that the human race pushes the boundaries for no other reason than for s*its and giggles. It'd be a pretty boring place if nobody tried anything different because on the face of it, it seemed pointless.

 

Also, if can remember correctly back to the start of the topic, I'm sure Issam didn't actually say he wanted to build a big power 205. This is all about big power XUs is it not? So why all the debate about 500whp, or whatever, in a 205? And he doesn't live in the UK, so the fact we have narrow, rough, bendy roads with little opportunity to exploit big speeds is neither here nor there either.

 

I'm sorry to sound righteous And Issam, I'm sorry I can't contribute on a technical level, but personally whilst I don;t see the point in a 205 with 500bhp either, I for one would be fascinated by any such big power XU builds.