Highest Whp Xu9j"x" Turbo ?

[GLPoomobile 958]

is this simple maths cos I reckon 4 bar though i'm worried you are asking a trick question lol

 

So if we are looking at making the most powerful 8v, you are going to have to look at lowering the bhp expectations. Its probably not going to be a match for the 450bhp T-16 already mentioned.

 

I don't think it's a simple case of doubling the boost pressure, because as boost increases so does inlet temps and efficiency decreases, losing power. But I could be wrong

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

It's about time you replied GLP.

 

I also agree - as I have said and stressed on several occasions - that I find the whole engine boundary pushing subject fascinating and admirable. Issam clearly knows what he wants to do, i.e. put XU* engines on the map in tuning circles, perhaps as much as VAG?

 

However, they're already on there in the T16 format; and this would be the best starting point in the forum's, apparently collective opinion.

 

For example PeterT has pointed out that unless the laws of physics differ in Barbados (which they may), Issam will not get even close to 400BHP, perhaps even at the flywheel let alone at the wheels, with an 8valve head.

 

IF Issam wishes to put this monster XU engine into a Pug of any description, then people have quite rightly pointed out - in advance of his expenditure and hardship - that he needs to be aware of exactly what difficulties in controlling this torrent of power he will encounter. And we all know it's his dosh, his time, and possibly his failure; but I think we all still admire him for doing it.

 

I respect his knowledge and enthusiasm, but I find myself in the community crew of asking quite sensibly 'what do you hope to achieve with this power?' and 'at what cost?'. They are reasonable questions that have been posed quite sensibly.

 

The nearest attempt at a technical reply I can give (having no experience of turbo engine building BUT having plenty of experience in driving Peugeots), is to suggest he attempts to advance the now rather old T16 design, using that manner of components as a start point, but brought up to date with a combination of modern materials, advances in component design and his personal talent.

Edited March 20, 2008 by DrSarty

[Batfink 201]

I think this needs more input from Issam.

 

How much power do you want to get Issam? We can all start guessing what needs to be done but without a target goal then its a bit too much of a random numbers game with an endless choice of parts available.

 

The worrying thing which stands out is you have lots of experience with turboed VAG engines but seemingly nothing with the Peugeot range. The 8v engines are not a great platform for high power forced induction. VW are using 20v engines so realistically a 30 year old design 8v engine really isnt going to come remotely close.

If you can get over 250bhp at the wheels you are probably doing very well with the 8v.

 

Look at what Peugeot and Citroen have been using in top class racing. They were using 16v engines in the t16 in the early 80's.

 

For big power you are going to have to bite the bullet and scrap your current plans, and ship over a proper basis for your project, an iron block 16v.

 

I'm sure then with enough money 500bhp at the fly is easy. Look up what Pauls racecar build spec was until he got a Seat Cupra R racecar instead

 

Thats my 2 cents....

 

Once you have a good engine and a realistic goal within your budget then we can easily work out the next issue such as your transmission

Edited March 20, 2008 by Batfink

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

However.. thinking about it. The longman 1.9 8v engines.. I seem to remember these are passing 200bhp in naturally aspirated form.

 

So still 400bhp from the 1.9 8v should not be impossible with the correct headwork and camshaft.

 

A guy in Norway tuned his XU10J2TE 2.0 8v turbo to like 300bhp, this was just with simple modifications (bigger turbo, different exhaust manifold, management and bigger injectors), and this engine is almost the same as the XU9 anyway.

 

I think it's just a matter of budget, and not much else really.

[Batfink 201]

But cost is what sells a product and it sounds like Issam will be looking at being able to pass on his gained knowledge to customers.

 

If it costs £12k to build a 400bhp 8v people will just fit a 16v and get the same power for half the outlay. Garry's supercharged gti-6 engine is a prime example.

 

I think what has got up peoples noses is coming on asking for advice then proclaiming our cars are mediocre.

 

Maybe Paul will come on here and tell us how much he spent to build a reliable 500bhp T-16 engine. Considering he had it for sale at 10k (?) it most likely cost him more. Add all the other costs that were needed to get all that power to the road and you probably dont have change from £20k

Sam spent a fortune before even getting to building the engine yet he still felt he was better starting afresh with a superior starting package.

Now stick an 8v in front of you and speculate a similar power. If 500bhp is mediocre then you have a problem as you will have to spend a small fortune for only disappointment.

 

Theres a good reason why we look at other marques engines for our cars, its balancing the costs vs the return. Companies like honda and vw have pushed their engine development significantly over the last few years and also have a large fanbase with lots of cash to fund development in high performance parts. I can't really say the same for peugeot. There is the occasional extreme engine but certainly with the 205 and 405 the car driving style has dictated the path the majority take.

Edited March 20, 2008 by Batfink

[McDude 33]

... what this market (if any) needs.

My understanding was (Issam can correct me if I'm wrong) is that this is a commercial venture (hence the paste of Issam's original post)

 

As such, I think the "what's the point" replies are spot on. Surely we represent a part of the 205 market and at least the more enthusiastic and more inclinded to spend money bit of the 205 market.

 

If the thread had started - I want to do this just for the hell of it. Then it might not have gone off tangent.

[Jakob 1]

Thank you Issam for putting some forced induction tuning thinking in to a likely "Natural Aspirated" forum!!!

Not that NA is a bad thing, but we defently need to push the technical and “mind thinking” boundaries for the XU engine on a turbo setup. I think this is one of the most interesting posts in a long time...

 

Am I the only one thinking why some of the xu engines have not been forced into more hp gains?? Looking at other 2.0 8v 4 cyllinder engines - they are seen produce much more power, but again also build with totally different mind set (turbo, manifold and cams). For instance, one 2.0 4 cylinder 8v ford scierra (old) in Denmark made 475hp. What is the big difference on the OEM potential here compared to the XU engine/head??? As I see it, none. Maybe due to the brand peugeot (it wont last), no one has either not believed in it or tried it yet. Stripping, it down and putting new items in it might help along the way. Like all other projects!!!

 

Another thing...why is every one going for the GT28XX turbos on the xu engine and call them big turboes on the 2.0.They are not big turbos on a 2.0, they are moderate sized turbos. Yes, they produce somewhat +350hp but what would happen with a GT3082R on the right setup???? The .82 exduxer will defently compensate somewhat for the bigger turbine lag hence the earlier risc of "surge". That is among others why issams question and project is most interesting…

 

I am a little bored with “tradional” sayings like it can be done etc etc. … in the old f1 days BMW ran close to 1500 hp on a 1.5L engine (F1), in Denmark we see the bounderies for small 1,6 toyota 20v climbing close to the 600hp with the GT3582 and T70 China turbo!!. On low budgets!!. At this forum / XU engines we are stroggling with 200-300 hp on a 2.0 8v engine. Makes you thinking...valve numbers and sizes are not the only parameters to play with!!

 

Among others (small turbo, low flow manifolds etc) I believe the cam is one of the reason behind the fairly moderate hp results. Building a good exhaust manifold should give us the possibility to have the high end cams to choose from. More rpm in tourge areas means more flow. How many XU turbo setups are being seen in here with a +280 degree cam?? All I hear when people discuss cam on a turbo XU setup is don’t choose to aggressive cam. Why???, it all depends on your backpressure!! A good manifold with a backpressure held near 1:1 will send you over that barrier and you can pick the high end cams and get up the revs where you will have more flow. Intake gasses on overlab will then only cool your valves.

 

I think issam is one of the first to really challenge and question how the xu engine is being build and/or could be build.

 

I used to run the TT manifold and GT2860RS. The TT manifold has very restricted flow and the ignition can (due to the manifold) not be set optimal against MBT (Minimal advance for Best Tourge) and no optimal cam can be used (due to exhaust gasses going back into the combustion champer / inlet manifold). So you are stock with max 250hp and low end tourge/hp. I now have a dp manifold, and unfortunately bought it with the T25 style flange. If I had the time I would change the flanges to T3 and fit af GT3082R with external wg. However I will stick with T25 style for now and run a GT2876R. I am having a custom intake manifold made to match the ported XU10 8v head. I will defently try a more aggressive cam to get up the revs to breath more air.

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/3775/turbo2ej2.jpg

 

A 8v 1.8 Golf II producing 296hp on 1,15 bar boost using a 288 cam (don’t have the other figures.) it revs +7000 rpm. The Golf has smaller intake valves OEM and less volume standard as the xu 2.0. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn0FPQRcoiM

 

A 8v 2.0 ford 428hp with the GT2876R http://www.passionford.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142899 It has the puma big valves, but note the low rpm (only 6000 rpm) what would happen with a GT30XX and a cam that would bring it close to 7500 rpm... I think it clime over or near the goals of issam.

 

Sweeden and Volvo… 2.3 8v 4 cyllinder engines with 450-500hp is quite normal up there. It has an advantage due to the >bore vs. stroke, but the heads OEM is not that good, they tempt to weld the combustion champer differently to get it to flow right/better around the intake valves. Just some examples of similar engines that is mated with BIG turbos, high lift / overlab cams, well flowed manifolds and which all puts out a lot more power. All of them being ~2.0 4 cylinder 8valves…

 

Maybe we should welcome issam more instead of telling him what can be done and what cant.

 

Br Jakob

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

Could not agree more Jakob

 

Also people thinking it's so expensive to make a realible "big power" engine.

It's surely not as expensive as many on here seem to think at least.

 

10k £ for the engine mentioned, 450bhp T16 for sale by Paul?

 

Engine hardware is not close to that anyway.

For example:

90£ - 2.1 TD block using the forged crank from it and the block itself.

270£ - Forged pistons

550£ - Custom forged H-beam rods

90£- Rebore block and hooning

 

This is the budget for my 2.2 T16 bottom end.

 

Then add the head:

70£ - Used Mi16 head

450£ - Uprated camshafts

400£ - Headwork inc. new guides and porting

 

Other stuff

300£ - Small things like gasket sets and bearings

150£ - Waterpump + cambelt kit

 

Total: 2379£, which is the cost for a bullet proof bottom end and overhauled top end.

 

What's missing then.. Turbo, Exhaustmanifold and intercooler but these you'll need anyway when building a turbo engine.

 

670£ - DP Engineering exhaust manifold

1050£ - Turbo (Garrett GT3076R) from DP - Engineering

140£ - Random intercooler off eBay

 

Total 4239£ and that's a serious engine with lots of nice parts, it can of course be made much cheaper.

[magic 1 1 Cars]

i don't want to start argument hear with you guys, but my wife drove my cti everyday over 1 year summer and winter, i got a simple dimmer switch in the car to change the map from 211hp to 441 hp .. this car won a few quarter mile races, (German racewars etc )

with after market ecu's u can set up perfect a 205 with 500 hp . i did it i know it works.

 

i build at the moment a mix engine between a dW10 block and a with mix of xu parts .. forced steal crank 307 hdi ., ml6 gearbox etc ..woessner piston

only a example a 307/407 hdi runs with 16 bar compression and 1.3 bar pressure standard.. the block is the same like xu10 block..

 

my goal is over 550 hp, with a small budget

i have a 405 t16 for sale and a T16 engine, so when same one will make easy 400hp mail me..

magic205@optusnet.com.au

 

 

p.s when u load up a xu9 block with over 1.1 bar the liners start to shake .. u get a perfect oil/milkshake in the engine ..

or it lift up the head and the water runs out ... i saw both

Edited March 20, 2008 by magic

[Issam 0]

Issam will not get even close to 400BHP, perhaps even at the flywheel let alone at the wheels, with an 8valve head.

I am sorry but I am going to disagree with that....

My 8V made 307whp and the head flowed less than the Peugeot counterpart.Its all about duration

 

As I suggested earlier, the gearbox you need is an ME or ML type as fitted to T16's, turbo 8V's, V6's etc. A BE1 or BE3 from a 205 just won't cut it.

Now we are cooking with Gas!

 

Buy a set of small block, small journal Chev rods, in what ever length you like and machine one side to remove the offset.

Ok I have those dimensions on file but what are the dimensions of the stock XU rods?

 

Jacob thanks for posting! finally someone on the same wavelength

 

They are not big turbos on a 2.0, they are moderate sized turbos. Yes, they produce somewhat +350hp but what would happen with a GT3082R on the right setup???? The .82 exduxer will defently compensate somewhat for the bigger turbine lag hence the earlier risc of "surge". That is among others why issams question and project is most interesting…

The GT3082R with the 0.82 A/R turbine will definately do 500bhp no problem.The turbocharger is rated for much more than that and on a 2000cc engine it will see full spool by about 4000 rpm's.

 

I used to run the TT manifold and GT2860RS. The TT manifold has very restricted flow and the ignition can (due to the manifold) not be set optimal against MBT (Minimal advance for Best Tourge) and no optimal cam can be used (due to exhaust gasses going back into the combustion champer / inlet manifold). So you are stock with max 250hp and low end tourge/hp. I now have a dp manifold, and unfortunately bought it with the T25 style flange. If I had the time I would change the flanges to T3 and fit af GT3082R with external wg. However I will stick with T25 style for now and run a GT2876R. I am having a custom intake manifold made to match the ported XU10 8v head. I will defently try a more aggressive cam to get up the revs to breath more air.

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/3775/turbo2ej2.jpg

Mate do you have the dimensions for these flanges?

Edited March 20, 2008 by Issam

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Please don't mis/selectively quote me Issam; I am not your enemy here.

 

For example PeterT has pointed out that unless the laws of physics differ in Barbados (which they may), Issam will not get even close to 400BHP, perhaps even at the flywheel let alone at the wheels, with an 8valve head.

 

I shall say it yet again; I am all for you and others pushing boundaries and getting huge HP out of XU engines. If you CAN get these kind of figures that you don't think are mediocre then crack on mate; I shall watch with awe.

 

My only issue has been (on two threads now) your abrupt approach. I am not the only one who has taken issue with it. All forgotten now anyway.

 

Back to topic. I genuinely understand now your goals (one technical goal linking into a commercial objective), regardless of what you'll be doing with it in the vehicle that will I'm sure, end up with this frightening power.

 

Best of British luck to you & your fellow turbo nutters.

[Jakob 1]

Mate do you have the dimensions for these flanges?

 

No unfortunately, the exhaust manifold is bought from www.dp-engineering.nl. The inlet manifold is being custom made. The XU10 plastik manifold is being used for flange measuring, but not done yet. It will be with very short runners, trumpets in plenum and a 75mm throttle.

[Jakob 1]

As I suggested earlier, the gearbox you need is an ME or ML type as fitted to T16's, turbo 8V's, V6's etc. A BE1 or BE3 from a 205 just won't cut it.

 

ME and ML are they diesel?

How well do they fit a XU10 block?

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

ME and ML are they diesel?

How well do they fit a XU10 block?

 

They're a straight fit as long as the boxes are taken from cars with XU engines.

 

If you take the box from a V6 engine you need to change the bellhousing, so that's a no go.

[Jakob 1]

They're a straight fit as long as the boxes are taken from cars with XU engines.

 

If you take the box from a V6 engine you need to change the bellhousing, so that's a no go.

 

Ok, great! Any recommendations/common used one with a reasonable ratio for a petrol/turbo application?

And what about 205 GTI driveshafts - do they fit in the box?

[Mandic 0]

Take 2.0 turbo one, XM CT and the like. Has best ratios.

[Issam 0]

My only issue has been (on two threads now) your abrupt approach. I am not the only one who has taken issue with it. All forgotten now anyway.

My apologies but thats not how I am.....REALLY!

 

If we can work together on this that would be great.Is it possible for any of you to stencil out a manifold on a piece of paper and give me the dimesnions that would be great.

[Sam 4]

I have a set of small block rods from my old build, they need the small end rebushed, crank reground and offset machined yes. They are very cheap too. I imagine you can get them but I have a set for sale.

 

Why don't you all just leave this guy alone, it's like a school kid argument. I like your idea, if we all just put GTI6s & Mi's into 205s on throttle bodies there'd be nothing to talk about. N/A is good yes but people can be different and it's not a sin.

[weejimmy 1]

issam could you not just get a 16v head shipped to you. then you can get more or same power easier. (unless you prefer the 8v)

ive drivven a 350bhp 205 fwd and it was perfectly driveable (fast on b roads) a car is only as fast as you drive it, if it wheel spins back off, my mums 1.1 fiesta spins its wheels sometimes, dose that mean its got to much power???

i think people that say too much power is bad are making excusees to themselfs as to why they dont have more power.

and if new cars can come with 2.0 400bhp engines (evo) im shure a pug engine can get there with time and parts.

 

ive got a 1.3 with near enough 500bhp so shurely 600+ is avalible from a 2.0

 

again not much technical input but dont let the grumpys get you down.

[petert 583]

Ok I have those dimensions on file but what are the dimensions of the stock XU rods?

 

XU journals are 50.00mm. Small journal Chev is 2". So you need a 0.040" undersize bearings and grind crank to suit. When you get your pistons made, just specify Chev pin size of 0.927". Carrillo will make the rods any length you like, but I'd just buy an Eagle (or similar) 6" rod and specify the desired compression height when you get the pistons made.

[Issam 0]

XU journals are 50.00mm. Small journal Chev is 2". So you need a 0.040" undersize bearings and grind crank to suit. When you get your pistons made, just specify Chev pin size of 0.927". Carrillo will make the rods any length you like, but I'd just buy an Eagle (or similar) 6" rod and specify the desired compression height when you get the pistons made.

Interesting.Whats the bore on th connecting rod itself?

VW 9A/AEB/etc crankshaft journals are 48mm (1.889") and the Forged rods I sell have a big end bore of 50.5mm (1.992").As for lengths of the Rods I am able to get 144mm (5.669") & 159mm (6.244").

I allready have an 8V piston on its way over to JE.If I can get a 16V piston maybe we can do a Group buy of 10 so that JE keeps them on the shelves.

 

FWIW I sell SCAT rods @ 349US/set.....that almost more than half of what you guys pay ent?

Edited March 22, 2008 by Issam

[Mandic 0]

Custom or of the shelf ones?

 

 

Cheers

 

Ziga

[Issam 0]

Custom or of the shelf ones?

Cheers

 

Ziga

Once we get 10 people onboard (40 pistons+) with the exact same specs...i.e. Compression Height,Ratio,bore,etc then JE will stock them on the shelf and the price will come down drastically to ~ 475US/set (which is nothinhg for you guys given your dollar).

Otherwise it is back to custom units

[Mandic 0]

Sorry, was reffering to SCATs

 

 

Ziga

[Issam 0]

Sorry, was reffering to SCATs

Ziga

Those are off the shelf VW Units.