206 Gti 180 Enigne Into A 205 Rally Car

[andychalmers 0]

Im seriously thinking about fitting a EW10 J4S engine from a 206 GTI 180 into my 205 rally car. I've located a engine and just want to clarify a load of points as below. I've been searching the net for ages and car'nt seem to find anything about these engines. I've read this forum and not had much luck. Does anyone have any info or know where I can find out about these engines/conversion?

 

Has this been done before?

Will this engine fit a 205?

are the mounts the same?

Will a BE3 box fit them?

Pros/cons of the engine?

Also I want to ditch the VVT and put on throttle bodies? any info?

Can anyone out there tune the engine?

 

Thanks for your help in advance mate,

regards Andy

[Coonper 0]

Yes, its been done before, but its a lot of effort for not much more power than an mi16.

 

Just get an mi16 in there and tune it. The amount of money you will save from putting the gti180 in it, could probably get you a turbo for it! Lol Then you'll be way more than 180bhp

[Guest MattyC]

i may be corrected by others but i am fairly sure the BE3 box wont fit and therefore the engine/gearbox mounts dont fit.

 

Maybe a gti6 engine would be a easier option?

 

If its rally you might want to think about the weight of it as well? i have never driven a gti6 converted 205 so dont know how they handle but its going to be a fair bit more weight at the front compared to a 1.6/1.9 8v.

 

Matt

[Powers 13]

Has this been done before?

Yes. Try a search.

Will this engine fit a 205?

Yes.

are the mounts the same?

No

Will a BE3 box fit them?

No

Pros/cons of the engine?

Pros - 180 Bhp, VVT, lightweight. Try a search.

Also I want to ditch the VVT and put on throttle bodies? any info?

Ditch the variable valve timing? Throttle bodies, yes, obviously would require a mapable ECU.

Can anyone out there tune the engine?

Yes. Richard Longman etc

[andychalmers 0]

Thanks for the quick replies, as to some replies. Just to clear up I do not want a MI or a turbo. Im spending over 8K on my new 205 rally car without the engine, using mostly the best of everything so im narrowing down my engine choice. I've tried loads of searching on here and on the net and im grasping at straws so thought would ask, I need specific info please as I know nothing about these engine or fittment however very knowlegable on 205's. I spoke to longmans today, said engine can produce 260+ horse if I give them lots of £ notes. LAD motorsport basically said it was a crap engine & stay clear. The engine is alloy so lighter than a cast block. My aim is to fit it as standard form with throttle bodies with a decent ECU and see how it goes then up the power & torque as required. 180bhp is enough for forrest rallying I can tell you but for tarmac every BPH is required as long as things dont break.

Cheers again

[Batfink 201]

You need to speak to Mark Shillaber about engines. PM sandy309 for his telephone number

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Good engine and better than the Mi and can produce good power when you speak to the right tuner, Longmans being one and not the other, Have a look on 205gti.com I think as there might be one featured on there which Hilgert did

[base-1 17]

LAD motorsport basically said it was a crap engine & stay clear.

 

Roughly translated means "I haven't got the foggiest idea about it, so it must be s*it"

[engine killer 6]

one of my friend here tuned a EW10J4S before with an aftermarket ECU (Autronic), he managed to keep the VVT with throttle bodies and the low end torque was very pleased and even better with the VVT is well set.

[Sandy 191]

I've just had a quick look at the parts data. The 180 seems to use different rods (floating pin) to the regular EW10, which hopefully means tougher rods, because the regular EW10 seems to like throwing conrods! The big end bearings are different too and graded ones are listed, which is possibly the first time in a Peugeot engine (but standard fare in most Japanese engines for some time!)

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I propose a realistic alternative (although slightly off topic) of fitting a Honda VTEC engine instead.

 

Just an idea, as it seems to me that you would have to spend quite a few £'s to even reach the starting level of the VTEC on the Pug lump, which could've been put to good use to give much better performance out of the Jap lump.

 

You have to make custom engine mounts for both anyway, so again I think you'll get much better value for money (= ) going the Honda VTEC route.

 

Good luck either way.

Edited February 29, 2008 by DrSarty

[Sandy 191]

Yes, brrrrrrrrrrrr-BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP!

 

I want mine back on the road!

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

I propose a realistic alternative (although slightly off topic) of fitting a Honda VTEC engine instead.

 

Rallying has new regs coming into play in the UK soon which would make such a car unuseable on the stages, unfortunately

 

Even the 180 might be a problem, to be honest, depending upon interpretation of the regs. As the other thread is talking about, of course

Edited February 29, 2008 by brumster

[niklas 1]

Also I want to ditch the VVT

 

Then why not just go the regular XU 16v route?

VVT is one of the biggest pro's with this engine...

[Rob Thomson 6]

Rallying has new regs coming into play in the UK soon which would make such a car unuseable on the stages, unfortunately

 

Even the 180 might be a problem, to be honest, depending upon interpretation of the regs. As the other thread is talking about, of course

 

Nah, that's wrong. The rules for engine swaps will be more restrictive but you can still put any normally aspirated production 4-pot in a 205.

 

The other thread's about sprinting...

[JamesLumley 4]

Avoid the Mi16 route due to oil surge issues. Yes you can reduce the problem but it will never be cured.

I ran these for 4odd years in the rally car so talking from experience!

 

I would either go Gti-6 if you have lots of pennies to throw at it or as suggested above look at the Honda engines. The 180 engine is a good starting point but again expensive to tune/complicated to fit and doesn't really offer any advantages over the gti-6 or Honda options.

 

The Gti6 pug engine is a relatively simple fit but expensive to tune. Honda engine doesn't really need tuning as it makes good power to start but it costs quite a lot to buy initially and mounts will need fabricating.

 

You get what you pay for with engine builders, Shillaber and Longmans are top fo the pile (I use the latter) having had various bad experiences in the past with other well known so called "experts". Make sure you budget for rebuilds as these are what keep your investment healthy and reliable. We top and tail every three events which might seem excessive but a don't want to write off either an event or engine for the sake of a few hours work in the garage.

 

Good luck with whatever route you choose, I would suggest that your strengths will be in the forest as tarmac events are getting more and more competitive - you need a serious budget to get into the top class positions!

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Nah, that's wrong. The rules for engine swaps will be more restrictive but you can still put any normally aspirated production 4-pot in a 205.

 

The other thread's about sprinting...

 

Fair enough; I stand corrected - apologies!

[andychalmers 0]

Thanks for all the great advise, please keep it coming. I want to stay with a Peugeot engine. I thought a 180 was a alternative to a GTI 6 or MI, sounds like its a bit different to fit. Anyone get any specific fitting info?

Also I've been told a BE3 box will fit with minimal fuss. Anyone got any specific info?

A BE3 is a muct as I'll be fitting a Quaife box or PTS 6 speed. Im after bags of torque and not so bothered about power at hight RPM as I need acceleration not top speed.

[Batfink 201]

are dry sumps not allowed on rallycars?

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

They certainly are.

 

Looking forward to testing out the oil surge issue on my mi16 stage car very soon.... if I can't do it at MIRA, I can't do it anywhere

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I'm glad you asked for and appreciate our comments.

 

Staying with a Peugeot engine is a fine choice, but I just don't understand why you would want to be so determined to fit a GTi180 engine - which will cost a lot to physically fit - when you could buy a mint GTi6 engine and wang it straight in having spent extremely wisely on making sure it was strong as an ox internally and chucking out easily (with the sort of money you're hinting you have for this project) well over 200BHP, tailored to exactly how you want it for competition.

 

This to me meets your aim of staying N/A Pug, and is the best application of funds and time for maximum torque/power.

[Batfink 201]

well if they are allowed then an mi16 will not have surge issues with one fitted. But then the Gti-6 engine is so affordable now and a better design.

[GLPoomobile 958]

I don't think anyone has mentioned that the 180 engine is taller due to sitting more upright. IIRC, to get it in a 205 means it then sits lower, so you'd have issues with sump clearance, which obviously is not good in rallying (dependent on surface of course). Maybe not such an issue if dry sumped.

 

All of the above could be bollocks of course

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

All of the above could be bollocks of course

 

And is.......maybe

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Yes, I agree, I know we're digressing from the original question but provided it's taken in the spirit it's meant - just informational/advisory - I think it's worthwhile mentioning. I plumped for the mi16 because it came around at the right price (ie. free ) but if the oil surge issues do become a problem, dry sumping would not only be expensive but also I'm not convinced about the suitability of the Pace system and the pump drive on a rally car (bit too close to the front offside wheel for my liking, grot/clonking with stones/sumpguard issues and so forth). So an XU10 block, while heavier, would potentially be a lot easier to fit and give same results for cheaper/similar outlay. Not sure about the argument of the additional weight spoiling the handling - I haven't seen any convincing argument one way or another at the moment. This 180 option just seems to much hassle for my liking - simplicity being the name of the game