Money Required For Tuning A 1.9 Gti

[jamiej 0]

I have an idea,

 

Seeing as i cannot get insured on any engine transeplanted engine, my idea of GTI6 205 has gone out of the window ... so ... this is it.

 

If i were to buy a standard 1.9 GTI engine, just how far can you go with regards to tuning, before getting into race spec money.

 

IE, what kind of power can you get from a cam, some head work, throttle bodies etc ...

 

Also ,where is the best place to get an engine from. They cannot cost too much surely, as so many are re placed with 16 valvers !!!

 

 

So, can anyone with any experience on tuning the 1.9 lend an ear and shed some advice, with regards to cost and power etc.

 

All help very much appreciated.

 

Jamie

[GLPoomobile 958]

Any feedback would be moot, as I gaurantee it'll cost more to insure a modified 8v than it will to insure it with a 16v transplant.

 

Unless you are planning on not declaring the mods, but I'm sure you are far too sensible to do that

Edited February 24, 2008 by GLPoomobile

[jamiej 0]

What does moot mean ... also (i think) with regards with the insurance, i am on a slightly odd (but totally legal) policy and the mods won't make a difference.

 

thanks

[nick 3]

Have you had any quotes on a 16v conversion? you might be suprised... mine went down £4 because the bx that the engine came out of was a group lower than the 205.

 

Nick

[McDude 33]

Moot means irrelevant.

 

I think the best you are likely to get out of a tuned 8v is about 160-170 if we are only talking gas-flow, cam and perhaps some balancing. Adding throttle bodies maybe 170-180.

 

Ballpark figures because different tuners claim different results and rolling roads are notoriously 'different' in the results they produce.

 

I wouldn't look on this as the poorer route - personally I love the 8v engine and think it has a lot going for it over a 16v; torquey, free-revving and characterful. I won't get into a debate about what engine is best, but I'm looking at getting work done on my 8v in preference to a 16v option.

 

Price-wise, I'm looking at going to the 'top-end' of the price spectrum and Skip Brown. You are looking at 2-3 bags of sand to get them to rebuild your engine - but you get what you pay for and their reputation is second to none. Do the work yourself and you will save a lot on that.

[GLPoomobile 958]

I wouldn't look down on an 8v either. Budget wise to get decent power will cost more then sticking a standard Mi/S16/6 in instead, but the power can be had, and it really depends what type of driving experience you want. But on the subject of budget, if you can't afford the insurance uplift for a engine conversion, can you afford to sink big bucks into an 8v? Only you can answer that. You'll only get a meagre performance increase from an 8v with DIY mods and you will need mucho deniro to get circa 170bhp.

 

I don't wish to come across as patronising, but I can't believe such an insurance policy exits where you have free reign to mod the engine as you please at no extra cost, but they'll anally violate you if you do an engine conversion! Let us know the details though if this is the case, I think business might go through the roof for them LOL!

[Ryan 99]

mine went down £4 because the bx that the engine came out of was a group lower than the 205.

 

I was paying £315 TPFT for my 1.6. With the Mi16 it went down to £287.

[large 33]

As for the cost of a 1.9 I got 2 last year for £80 (thats for the 2 not each) I would not bother as GL and others have said to get the same power as a 6 it would not be that cheep, you could be looking at £500 just for the head work

[Simes 248 2 Cars]

You'll get more bang for your buck from a 16v unit.

[Peetypug 5]

this is the problem i've been having

i've spent about £750 on parts for my engine up till now and still aint started to build it

i'm gona have a go at the head work myself to save money

the thing i've done though is keep the engine standard while i get all the bits together (its taken a while) and looking for bargains on the way

the cheapest option would be the 16v or turbo engine

it will cost a fair bit to buy build and insure a modded 8v to the same power of the 16v

if i had my time over it would be the turbo engine and sell all my bits.....i may still do this

[jamiej 0]

Cheers for the feedback fellas,

 

Ideally i would do all the work myself, the plan, was to buy a 1.9 lump and then rebuild it and tune it at work, i work at Tickford (engine testers and builders) and have been given a bay to work in, i though ti would just make the most of it.

 

With regards to insurance , i am 20 and have been on the same policy since i started driving, the policy does not insure the driver but insures the car ... thus i have no NCB. The policy did not have any problem insuring me on my current Jap import but it does clearly state that any car with an engine not designed for the standard car cannot be used. It does not mention engine mods ... mabe im being naive but, having been told directly, i cannot do an engine conversion, i am looking for alternative ideas !!

 

So, if say i get an engine for £80 i could put some money back into it and a BHP of around 140-150 could be very achievable, without spending mega money. I used to have a mk2 Golf, that was around 120 bhp in 950 kg, the 205s must be rapid !!!

[Peetypug 5]

So, if say i get an engine for £80 i could put some money back into it and a BHP of around 140-150 could be very achievable, without spending mega money

 

what is your budget?

i was going to buy a ready modded engine off ashley peddle a while ago for £300

so if you dont want to do the work yourself just keep your eyes open on here

i picked an engine up the other week for £70 off here as well

[jamiej 0]

Well the benefit of just having the engine on a work bench means that my budget will not really be a fixed amount, i wouldnt want to to spend thousands on the engine. I thought maybe, £100 on the engine and various standard parts to get it to a nice example and then say another £150 for an aggressive cam, do some head work myself. By head work, i only really think i will have the cababilities to port and polish, maybe re cut the valve seats.

 

Cam and head work may get me to the 135-140 mark ??, then, come the summer, buy a 1.6 GTI and stick the 1.9 block into it, i imagine the motorway driving would be interesting but the acceleration would be subliminal !!

 

you guys know a lot more about this whole venture than me, i am looking for advice really, what CAN i do and what WOULD it cost, i do have some ideas but i have never owned or worked on 205 before, cost wise im just comparing it to the work that i did on my VW Golf, the engines for the 205 seem cheaper already !!

 

Jamie

[maturin23 10]

Maybe consider changing your insurance?

 

I certainly would if I didn't get any NCB - unless you're planning on claiming every year maybe it might make sense.

I paid an additional £15 once I whacked in the 405 Mi16 engine.

 

IMHO even a 205 with 160-odd BHP and the close ratio Mi16 box doesn't have 'sublime' performance - good enough to keep up with most modern hot hatches but nothing more - you might be a little disappointed with 135 BHP after all your work.

Edited February 25, 2008 by maturin23

[jamiej 0]

Ok, thanks for that,

 

The reason i am on the insurance policy is that its a fixed price for any car, regardless of the insurance group value etc. I have been driving group 15+ cars since i was 18 and its cheaper than doing it in my own name. I hope that by the time i am 25 i will be old enough and will have 7 years "claim free" driving experience.

 

This is it though, i could get another Jap turbo and have all the power i want but theres something abuot a 205 that i really am not getting, its not all about sheer power if you know what i mean, i recon if i can get a 205 to keep up with most hot hatches then it will be a better driving experience thats all. I swapped my golf for my MR2 and its just a bit bland if you know what i mean, the golf had character and was fairly fast, although the MR2 wipes the floor with my old golf, its not as fun to drive as it isnt as raw.

 

I think i may just start getting some more quotes on the Mi16/GTI6 idea as well as tuned 1.9, just to see if it will be cheaper than my current insurance deal

 

What kind of performance are we talking here though also, i know its not going to be M3 fast but a mid to low 6s and a sub 15 sec quarter ET, is that reasonable ?

 

Jamie

[CaptainK 11]

If you really really want a 1.9 GTi engine for a project, you are quite welcome to have my old engine for free (122 bhp CAT 1.9 GTi from an "L" reg with 96k miles on it).

 

The only downsides are you will have to pick it up from forum member Jonnie205 in Bicester, and more importantly its not running right - oil pump is shot and thus its internals might not be 100% pretty. Was still running when I last saw it, but it was a little down on power. So as I said, its only worth it if you want a project.

[CaptainK 11]

I swapped my golf for my MR2 and its just a bit bland if you know what i mean, the golf had character and was fairly fast, although the MR2 wipes the floor with my old golf, its not as fun to drive as it isnt as raw.

I have the same with my FTO mate. So I kept my original Pug as well. The FTO is far better on the corners and acceleration* and top speed* than my Pug, BUT the Pug is so much more fun and has the appeal of a go-kart.

 

* Acceleration and Top Speed figures haven't been compared since getting a GTi6 engine in my 205. Also neither of my cars are faster than the other at the moment. 205 has a dead engine and the FTO has a smashed in front.

[GLPoomobile 958]

What a weird insurance policy! More details please.......broker, underwriter, and name of policy if you can be bothered to tell us

 

So are you saying you could go out and buy a 911 turbo and the policy wouldn't change? How much is it costing you?

 

I think you may regret not building up a NCB though. It's not as simple as having x number of years claim free driving, without a NCB I think you will still get stung once you decide to swap to another policy. It might be worth buying a £50 old banger and getting it covered under the cheapest policy you can find. SORN the s*it heap and just build up your NCB.

 

But anyway, the policy you are currently on MUST be costing a fair bit (surely? ) and chances are if you got a quote from HIC/Flux/Greenlight etc for a 205 with modified 8v or a 16 swap, even with NCB, you might just find you are better off.

[jamiej 0]

My insurance policy as it stands is

 

groups 1- 10 £750 ish

groups 11-19 £950 ish

groups 20+ £1250 ish (ish = give or take a few pounds)

 

im not entirely sure of the policy details, i just give the money to my parents and they sort out the rest

 

A porshe 911 would therefore cost £1250 to insure fully comp, any driver ... even a learner !!

It does come in very handy tho as my car is legal for anyone to drive, providing that they have my consent.

 

 

Enough on the policy tho ...

 

Captain K, that is a most generous offer ... and its even more perfect as i live in Buckingham and have access to a van !!!, internals shot ... that is a bit of a worry but at least it will keep me busy.

[GLPoomobile 958]

Enough on the policy tho ...

 

Sorry dude, I have to keep on about it as I'm fascinated It sounds like some sort of trade policy. Is you dad in the motor trade? As in a car dealer?

[CaptainK 11]

Captain K, that is a most generous offer ... and its even more perfect as i live in Buckingham and have access to a van !!!, internals shot ... that is a bit of a worry but at least it will keep me busy.

Well, it was running and made 88bhp AT THE WHEELS, around 115 at the fly, but felt "slow" to drive. Prior to it completely dying it had new valves, piston rings, liners, big end bearings and so forth. Basically they rebuilt the engine as they snapped its cambelt. Unfortunately they skimped out on a new oil pump.

 

So as I said, I don't know what its gonna look like inside. All I know for sure is that the oil pump is broke and the crankshaft end seals will need replacing as they leaked a little bit. Didn't make any funny noises whilst running with a dodgy oil pump.

 

Feel free to contact Jonnie205 and get it off him if you want. Good luck with it.

Edited February 25, 2008 by CaptainK

[jamiej 0]

Captain K

With regards to the work required, do you imagine that the internals are shot and need replacing (ie pistons, crank, rods etc) or have you no idea of whast the issue is.

 

My only concern is that although getting a free engine is awesome (thank you very much) it may not be worth it if i need to replace all the internals, if i could buy a runner for £80 and then just clean it up and add some goodies to it.

 

Please dont think i am being ungrateful, but do you kinda get what i mean.

 

Any info, very much appreciated.

[CaptainK 11]

JamieJ - I have no idea to be honest as I'm not technical on cars. I doubt anyone else would know either, unless Jonnie205 has striped it down to have a look.

If you can get a runner for £80 then thats probably best. I just mentioned my old engine as I thought you were looking for a "project" project, if you get what I mean. Heck, even I'm confused. But the good thing is, with this free engine you can mess it up as much as you want and it doesn't matter. Nothing lost.

[hodgy 0]

ive spent loads on my 8v and all the money ive spent for the power i have i could of had an 16v conversion and had the same power but better mpg and enough spare change to spend on insuring the 16v.

 

from my experience dont tune an 8v loads as its a waste of money compared to get the same power you can get from a standard 16v

[Alastairh 47]

On a budget, id follow on from Anthony and go XU10 cylinder head and a cam.

 

Quick little car he has. Really walks away from a healthy 1900.

 

Revvy like a 1600, but loads of torque