Setting Ignition Timing Properly

[Theo205 0]

I've been working on my Pug tonight changing the dizzy cap/rotor vacumm advance and oil ring.

After I got the dizzy off the head I realised I didnt mark where it was set before, so when I put it back on I had to adjust approximately and do some test runs in the neighbourhood to fine tune.

 

On the first run the engine felt a bit flat and sluggish so i thought that i had it set a bit on the retard side.

After I readjusted it abit it felt that i came back to where it was before.

 

BUT, since i was holding the 11mm spanner I thought i try advancing a bit more...

I soon as got the wheels rolling i could hear the dizzy knocking. After 3000rpm it stopped completely so I gave it WOT...

 

FOOOK!! It went crazy... I felt i was launced.... I never EVER felt that kind of power drivng my 1.9 8v. Honestly Im not exaggerating, and it was no placebo i know my car. I stopped the car on the side of the road and I was smiling, thinking that all this time the ignition timing wasnt set right. Now all that was left was to retard until the knocking in low revs was elliminated and keep it there.

But sadly, to eliminate the knocking i had to retard quite few degrees and i lost that power outburst.

 

Now Im thinking that theres somehing wrong with the dizzy.... maybe the proper setting of the dizzy has to be set with more advance as I did before, but the springs for the centrifugal system have weakend and advance early and result to knocking?

 

Any ideas on that?

And does anybody know if Pug has parts for dizzy refurb?

 

Thanx

Theo

[simonb 0]

not too sure but everyone seems to think that H&H ignition solutions are worth a go for rebuilds (about £40 IIRC). Mine pinks a little up to 3k but if I retard any more then the power just drops off and the car feels gutless. I think that you are right about the springs getting weaker but setting them up and getting the right spring rate kind of depends on the car / compression ratio etc.

 

I would assume that you would require slightly stiffer springs to hold off the advance for a bit longer until the revs can build in order to avoid pinking. It's also worth keeping in mind that you cam timing can also have an effect on where you need to position your dizzy in relation to the stops as the distributor is driven by the cam itself so more cam advance = more dizzy advance in relation to the crank.

 

I have tried dismantelling a dizzy in the past and it isn't the easiest of jobs in the world and can be very frustrating if you dont have another unit to compare to when you re-assemble but I think that it is possible to replace the springs using the large appeture on the dizzy housing without having to dissmantle it fully.

 

HTH

[Pugnut 9 1 Cars]

funny this topic came up . the 1.9 i bought in the summer and it pulled really strong from low rpm right to the limiter. the engine felt really healthy. I payed ott for the car , but one with such a fresh body up in this neck of the woods is pretty rare but the car needed a fair bit of TLC mechanically to get it spot on . Breathers were all shot , engine mounts , all the rest.

I have progressively replaced the breathers , fitted a new k&n filter, , stripped and cleaned the throttle body , engine mounts, full fluid chageout, etc etc

 

and the car just got better and better until i replaced the faulty vacuum unit on the distributor. i have to retard the ignition a good bit before i stop the pinking at low rpm . then the engine just looses its sparkle a bit.

 

i havent done much about it as yet , but i was going try just disconnecting the vacuum pipe and advance the timing again . I guess i could also have either a worn distributor/wrong or been supplied the wrong vacuum unit .

 

pretty much identical to my findings. You could try disconnecting the vacuum pipe and advancing the timing . It certainly worked better for me

 

Al

[Sandy 191]

This hints at the beauty of mapped ignition

[hodgy 0]

this whole post has just solved a big problem for me!

 

i finally set the cam timing of my car last month 106deg advanced like it should be and my car slowed right down and felt like it lost bout 15bhp. so if im stood with my knees against the grill of the car, which way do i turn the dizzy to advance it, to the car or to me!? and poss a rough amount to turn it

[simonb 0]

towards the car is advance. start just below the middle of the adjustment and advance about 1mm at a time before trying the new setting. My cam is advanced by 1 tooth as I wanted more torque lower down the rev range and so the dizzy is adjusted near the end of the stop in the retarded direction.

Edited November 28, 2007 by simonb

[simonb 0]

funny this topic came up . the 1.9 i bought in the summer and it pulled really strong from low rpm right to the limiter. the engine felt really healthy. I payed ott for the car , but one with such a fresh body up in this neck of the woods is pretty rare but the car needed a fair bit of TLC mechanically to get it spot on . Breathers were all shot , engine mounts , all the rest.

I have progressively replaced the breathers , fitted a new k&n filter, , stripped and cleaned the throttle body , engine mounts, full fluid chageout, etc etc

 

and the car just got better and better until i replaced the faulty vacuum unit on the distributor. i have to retard the ignition a good bit before i stop the pinking at low rpm . then the engine just looses its sparkle a bit.

 

i havent done much about it as yet , but i was going try just disconnecting the vacuum pipe and advance the timing again . I guess i could also have either a worn distributor/wrong or been supplied the wrong vacuum unit .

 

pretty much identical to my findings. You could try disconnecting the vacuum pipe and advancing the timing . It certainly worked better for me

 

Al

 

I would have thought that most of our distributors are getting on a bit now considering that most cars have covered near over and above 100,000 miles by now. Taking the vac advance off will effect MPG but will reduce the amount of advance at low revs i.e when the pinking occurs thus reducing the problem and allowing you to run more initial advance. Best thing is a new set of springs for the dizzy I would imagine.

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

Removing the vac advance "should" make no difference at all to full throttle ignition timing as there is almost no vacuum at full throttle! It certainly does make a difference for a moment on flooring the throttle though as my engine (tuned) demonstrates well but this is momentary. Taking it off will certainly effect economy though, that is what it is there for.

 

Mid-range pinking seems to be the problem and I'd say that is down to slak advance springs giving too much advance too early. This can be compensated for by retarding the static timing but this looses you advance at high revs and will impact your peak power. Having said that it is also the problem on my tweaked 8v engine, maybe your head has had a big skim bringing up the compression ratio or maybe your engine has just always been a bit retarded?

 

H&H change the ignition curve and re-build your dizzy. The re-build will help and the altered curve is really for those of us running non-standard engines, oh and I have been quoted ~£110 for a re-curved and re-built dizzy from H&H...I should be investing shortly.

[simonb 0]

Anyone know where you can get hold of the two springs then? must be somewhere that stocks different rated springs to fit the std dizzy?

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

Wish I did! You could ask H&H if they will supply them as they clearly have a stock of them.

[simonb 0]

In that case, could you not just close up the hook on the spring a little to remove any slack? Would that not have the same effect as installing a new/stiffer one?

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

In theory yes but never tried it.

 

By the way you do know that the dizzy isn't made for easy access to those springs? You have to drive out a pin at the base of the dizzy to get to them. I've only got as far as belting the pin with a hammer then giving up when it didn't move easily but there is a OLD post on here somewhere that inspired me to have a go and he did exactly what you are suggesting.

 

My engien is now modded so there isn't much point in doing it, I need stiffer springs not just removing the slack from the existing ones.

[simonb 0]

So possibly shortening the springs would be the same as fitting stronger ones. By the way, you can whip the springs out by going through the apparture in the dizzy housing and a pair of thin long-nose plyers. I did this the other day and it's pretty easy, just fiddly...

Edited November 28, 2007 by simonb

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

I'm impressed, I looked at that at the time and didn't think there was a chance! Go fo it.

 

Rob

 

P.S. Spring rate isn't changed by shortening them but it might help. Anyway getting an H&H dizzy for Christmas now so not going to be playing with the existing one.

[Pugnut 9 1 Cars]

Removing the vac advance "should" make no difference at all to full throttle ignition timing as there is almost no vacuum at full throttle! It certainly does make a difference for a moment on flooring the throttle though as my engine (tuned) demonstrates well but this is momentary. Taking it off will certainly effect economy though, that is what it is there for.

 

removing the vac advance allowed me to set the initial timing more advanced , giving me better ignition further up the rev range where it was required. just masking a problem i know but giving me better use of a worn dizzy.

[DamirGTI 342]

In theory yes but never tried it.

 

By the way you do know that the dizzy isn't made for easy access to those springs? You have to drive out a pin at the base of the dizzy to get to them. I've only got as far as belting the pin with a hammer then giving up when it didn't move easily but there is a OLD post on here somewhere that inspired me to have a go and he did exactly what you are suggesting.

 

My engien is now modded so there isn't much point in doing it, I need stiffer springs not just removing the slack from the existing ones.

 

Hello !

 

Well it isn't necessary to dismantle the entire dizzy for this job as I've been looking all around my H&H modified dizzy and found that they didn't remove all internals out (i couldn't find any damage/scratches on the dizzy shaft ring protectors and I've made a few paint marks there around the shaft and on some other places on the dizzy just to see what will they do with it - and I'm sure that they didn't remove the shaft and all internals out in order to replace and re-tense the springs ..)

 

(this is OE dizzy , not a modified one ..)

If you look at the dizzy closely you will find little metal cap , and when you remove this cap beneath is a window to the insides of the dizzy , precisely - dizzy springs and bob weights (they've been doing this "spring" job trough this window as I've found scratches around the cap , on the cap etc.) :

http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c151/Pie...rent=dizzy1.jpg

 

So we have two windows to the insides of the dizzy , one beneath the vacuum capsule and one beneath the little cap :

http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c151/Pie...rent=dizzy2.jpg

 

Remove the little cap and there you go , you have access to the springs and me thinks that with some sort of pliers they are able to remove them fit another type of springs and re-tense them as needed by twisting/bending the end stops :

http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c151/Pie...rent=dizzy3.jpg

http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c151/Pie...rent=dizzy4.jpg

 

And yes they've remove my old springs for sure (this ones are thicker/thiner and clean ..) , fit another set inside and bend the end stops in order to tense them as needed

 

Damir

Edited November 28, 2007 by DamirGTI

[sutol 0]

And yes they've remove my old springs for sure (this ones are thicker/thiner and clean ..) , fit another set inside and bent the end stops in order to tense them as needed

 

Damir

I think you will find that the end of the spring wears a slot in its retaining post thus making it loose. see if you can bend the retaining posts to comensate for the wear. Be careful because the stronger spring is supposed to be a little loose as it comes into play at higher revs.

We used to do this on Minis to tighten everything up and solve lumpy tickovers which was due to timing scatter ( caused by loose springs).

You will find one spring is stronger than the other and it is beneficial to fit two strong springs to hold the advance back.

[DamirGTI 342]

I think you will find that the end of the spring wears a slot in its retaining post thus making it loose. see if you can bend the retaining posts to comensate for the wear. Be careful because the stronger spring is supposed to be a little loose as it comes into play at higher revs.

We used to do this on Minis to tighten everything up and solve lumpy tickovers which was due to timing scatter ( caused by loose springs).

You will find one spring is stronger than the other and it is beneficial to fit two strong springs to hold the advance back.

 

True they fit one thin spring on one side and tense him (by bending the retaining posts) a bit strongly and on the other side one thicker spring (made from thick wire ..) and this one has a little slack the retaining posts on this thick spring is also bended , but not so much

 

But i don't know how can someone (without experience..) know how much to bend each retaining post in order to improve performance /pinking etc. ? this can be a tricky operation .. i mean how can you know that the spring is tense enough ? ...

 

Damir

[sutol 0]

But i don't know how can someone (without experience..) know how much to bend each retaining post in order to improve performance /pinking etc. ? this can be a tricky operation .. i mean how can you know that the spring is tense enough ? ...

 

Damir

Its not going to alter it that much so bend a little to take up the wear then a little at a time for trial and error. I used to have a box of springs taken from various distributers in scrap yards for experimenting with.

[DamirGTI 342]

Its not going to alter it that much so bend a little to take up the wear then a little at a time for trial and error. I used to have a box of springs taken from various distributers in scrap yards for experimenting with.

 

Interesting , before close examination of this recurved dizzy i didn't know that this can be done by bending the the retaining posts ..

 

But as I've understand they (at the H&H workshop..) have some sort of test stand for checking/adjusting this spring rate , or ? I've been asking them how they do that but with no luck - no answer on my question from the other side like that it's some sort of secret

 

Cheers !

Damir

Edited November 28, 2007 by DamirGTI

[Pugnut 9 1 Cars]

after wondering what all the fuss was about regarding spending lots of cash on refurbed units , i now see why :

 

service box quote:

 

Reference Description Quantity Price - VAT Price + VAT Total + VAT Selection

00005900E6 DISTRIBUTOR 290.85 GBP 341.75 GBP 341.75 GBP

 

 

refurb it is then

[DamirGTI 342]

Yes distributors from OE Peugeot are so f***g expensive (maybe they cost a little less when buying from Bosch ) , new distributor cost even more then new AFM

 

Damir

[sutol 0]

Interesting , before close examination of this recurved dizzy i didn't know that this can be done by bending the the retaining posts ..

 

But as I've understand they (at the H&H workshop..) have some sort of test stand for checking/adjusting this spring rate , or ? I've been asking them how they do that but with no luck - no answer on my question from the other side like that it's some sort of secret

 

Cheers !

Damir

They won't tell you anything as you will then be as wise as they are

 

There are all sorts of thing you can do but it all depands on the individual motor. It's mostly trial and error unless you can save the settings for say a standard 1.9 with fast road cams then you can reproduce that spec dizzy and be more or less accurate for any standard 1.9 with fast road cams.

(just an example, I know 1.9s don't need fast road cams)

You can file off the stops to increase advance for example.

What you used to need usually were two weak springs to bring the advance in early but that was with older engines and leaded petrol where you could get away with more advance.

It would be interesting if someone could post the ignition timing needs of a standard 1.9 through the rev range in simple terms from an ign map.

 

e.g.

Austin Mini 850 1000 rpm 12 deg / 3000 rpm 29 deg/ 6000 rpm 35 deg - non standard motors

 

Mini 1275 GT 1000 rpm 17 deg/ 3000 rpm 28 deg/ 6000 rpm 35 deg - non standard motors

 

1.9 PUG GTi ? ? ? - standard car

 

Something like that would be easy to check by marking the pulley in degrees with tipex and a standard motor could be tuned to go at or near its best if one was to have a rough guide to the settings.

[DamirGTI 342]

They won't tell you anything as you will then be as wise as they are

 

1.9 PUG GTi ? ? ? - standard car

 

Something like that would be easy to check by marking the pulley in degrees with tipex and a standard motor could be tuned to go at or near its best if one was to have a rough guide to the settings.

 

 

Yes they're a bit uncommunicative when you ask them something about this recurving job but anyway if i where them i would be also a little bit on the secret side ! ... on the end it does make sense

 

It will be nice to know ignition advance specs for standard 1.9 as i didn't find this data anywhere (I've been looking for that but didn't find anything .. just static and dynamic advance needs and nothing listed regarding the rev range.. like on 1000-3000-4500-6000rmp...)

 

Damir

Edited November 28, 2007 by DamirGTI

[hodgy 0]

wish i could fully understand what you were all talking bout. so trial and error to try get some life back into my 1.9. its getting rr set up soon and will they mess round with the dizzy to get the best power out the car?