Mi16 Conversion Pointers

[jamiej 0]

I am seriuosly toying with the idea of an Mi16 conversion in a 205.

 

I currently own an Mr2 but fancy something that i can say i made myself and goes like a rocket.

 

I have done some research into parts etc and think that cost wise, its gonna be tight, but possible. I aim to buy a 405 mi16 engine, totally strip and re build, replaceing all consumables, gaskets, seals etc. As well as porting the head.

 

I have a couple of questions though.

I hope to do the whole job for under £3k, that will include £1k for a donor 205 1.9.

 

I currently work at Tickford Powertrain and think that i may be able to have an area in the engine build to carry out the work, this is another one of the reasons i would like to do this, i think i should make the most of the opportunity i have.

 

I have seen that the engines go on ebay for around £300, is this the going rate, or are there other places to source engines.

What ancilliaries wil i need from the 405 to allow it to work in the 205, i think i will run a delimeted ECU with the dizzy convertor.

 

What kind of power and performance could i expect fro msuch work, i ideally i would love to add Twin 45s but funding that could proove difficult !!

 

Are my costing ideas realistic ? i dont reali hope to do much peroformance modifiactions to the engine, just adding some cams and verneirs i think, apart from that it would be just rebuildding it to factory condition.

 

Many thanks for all your help.

 

 

Jamie

[ashley peddle 3]

for £3k you should be able to get a fully rebuilt mi16 in throttle boddies/emerald and get it set up, lol... maybe even cams to push towards the 200bhp mark...

[jamiej 0]

Really,

I thought maybe a was being a bit naive with regards to costings,

The only issue i have really is the initial outlay for the engine and ancilliaries, is eBay the best place to pick them up ??

 

Thanks,

 

Throttles Bodies or Webers would be awesome.

[Baz 421]

Not sure that's quite correct, perhaps second hand etc, but you're not going to be able to have an engine fully rebuilt, then buy TB setup and have it installed/mapped etc for under £3k!

 

Do a search, there's loads of topics that cover this already. As you sound at least half capable of wielding spanners yourself you should be able to carry out the conversion. One thing i will say though, is do it properly, don't use a dizzy convertor and de-limited Ecu, just use the complete Mi package.

[GLPoomobile 958]

FYI, I was just on eBay killing time, and noticed there is a complete BX 16v (Mi16) package for sale in the Citroen parts section. Currently at £50 with a couple of days to go.

[jamiej 0]

Thanks about the ebay hint, i'll have a look.

So i can use the full Mi16 ECU and Dizzy then ? why would you use the 8v delimited one then ???

 

It seems there are many companies who make a hell of a lot of money by selling conversion parts for this exact conversion. Personally i think most things could be converted yourself, does anyone agree, im sure there is another way to getting the exhaust manifold to fit, rather than buying a £400 "bespoke" one ??

 

Most of the conversion i will aim to do myself, eg. stripping, re honing, skimming and porting (i have all the kit at work), the costs incurred will really be the parts required.

 

Am i right in thinking that in terms of the re build, assuming its done perfectly, the only downfall is the time required, i think the main problems will come to light when it comes to plumbing it all into the 205 engine bay, the idea of the electronics is a bit of a worry !!

does the adpated lower engine mount (solid or very stiff) stop the problem of oil starvation or is it best to make a baffle to sit in the sump ??

 

Im know many ppl have done this conversion before, what kind of money did you spend on it and what where the main problems incurred, and the hardest parts to find.

 

Cheers

[jamiej 0]

also Baz, i also doubt that i could get throttle bodies installed mapped and working with a fully rebuilt engine for under £3k, i made a quik costing sheet and with all performance parts inc big valves, TB set up, knife edged crank etc it came to well over £6K !!!

[ashley peddle 3]

take the engines jonnie was selling...

 

GTi6 package (everything you need) for £500

Rebuild for £1k max i would have thought? (presuming standard?)

Jenvies about £750?

Emerald + setting up £750?

 

or am i missing anything? that will give a reliable 195bhp...

Edited November 22, 2007 by ashley peddle

[jonnie205 1]

gti6 is the way to go

[Baz 421]

Thanks about the ebay hint, i'll have a look.

So i can use the full Mi16 ECU and Dizzy then ? why would you use the 8v delimited one then ???

 

It seems there are many companies who make a hell of a lot of money by selling conversion parts for this exact conversion. Personally i think most things could be converted yourself, does anyone agree, im sure there is another way to getting the exhaust manifold to fit, rather than buying a £400 "bespoke" one ??

 

Most of the conversion i will aim to do myself, eg. stripping, re honing, skimming and porting (i have all the kit at work), the costs incurred will really be the parts required.

 

Am i right in thinking that in terms of the re build, assuming its done perfectly, the only downfall is the time required, i think the main problems will come to light when it comes to plumbing it all into the 205 engine bay, the idea of the electronics is a bit of a worry !!

does the adpated lower engine mount (solid or very stiff) stop the problem of oil starvation or is it best to make a baffle to sit in the sump ??

 

Im know many ppl have done this conversion before, what kind of money did you spend on it and what where the main problems incurred, and the hardest parts to find.

 

Cheers

 

The de-limited ecu is so you can retain the 8v management, a cop out really, so you don't have to wire up the Motronic 16v management.

 

Exhaust Manifold, std one can be used with an angling plate (from QEP, forum sponsor) or just a std one re-angled and re-welded. You may need to chop the downpipe a little too.

 

All the oil and coolant pipes are very similar to the 8v one anyway, and the wiring is pretty much covered, as is everything in topics on here. It's essentially about 4 wires to make it run, then just a case of hooking up the gauges etc.

 

The 'adapted lower engine mount'?? You don't need to adapt it, i think you are talking about angling the whole engine, this is the wrong way and creates more starvation/surge problems and makes the driveshafts run at a less than perfect angle making them wear prematurely. I would recomend running slightly stiffer engine mounts, such as 'GroupN' ones from Baker Bushes and Mountings(another forum sponsor) or at least just a TD lower one if a road car.

 

All the bits are pretty easy to find, but it all adds up cost-wise if bought seperately, better to get a whole engine package with everything, loom, ecu, ancilliaries, AFM & pipes, manifolds etc.

 

Again, there's loads more topics to be found here with the search function, just search for 'conversion' in topics from the XU Engine & Gearbox Upgrade section.

[Baz 421]

take the engines jonnie was selling...

 

GTi6 package (everything you need) for £500

Rebuild for £1k max i would have thought? (presuming standard?)

Jenvies about £750?

Emerald + setting up £750?

 

or am i missing anything? that will give a reliable 195bhp...

 

If you rebuilt it yourself on the cheap, maybe less. But you know it's never that simple, consumables and sundries needed, oil, hoses, bits and bobs all add up quite quickly!!

 

Take a look at this, and it doesn't include mapping...;

Edited November 22, 2007 by BazGTMi

[ashley peddle 3]

im pretty sure that for £3k you could have quite a tidy engine with decent power... cant open your attachment but even if you get the boddies/management second hand your gona save £2-£300ish which would cover oil/pipe/sundries etc...

[Baz 421]

Yep, would defo save a few pennies!!

 

The attachment is just a quote from uncle Dave for a basic package of Jenvey's and M3K ecu etc, coming to around £1650!!

[jamiej 0]

Righty,

 

I've been doing some more research, and ... GTI6 ... how does this conversion differ from the mi16 in terms of cost, power, ease of transplant, requirements. I guess its just another direction to look at.

 

Like i said i hope to start this project after christmas and want to make sure that im doing the ideal conversion, i undertand that this is gonna be own to my personal preference but there doesnt seem to be loads of information on the GTI6 conversion but a plethera of info on the mi16 conversion.

 

There obviously are adcanvtages of using a newer engine and gearbox, but is it as tunable, easy to fit etc as the mi16. Also are the engines more or less than the Mi16.

 

Again, all help is much appreciated.

 

Many thanks,

Jamie

[sutol 0]

I am seriuosly toying with the idea of an Mi16 conversion in a 205.

 

I have a couple of questions though.

I hope to do the whole job for under £3k, that will include £1k for a donor 205 1.9.

 

 

Are my costing ideas realistic ?

Many thanks for all your help.

Jamie

I've just started this conversion and took the 1.9 engine out today so I have an empty engine bay to go at.

I think your costings are a little high, I'm hoping to complete mine with ported head, fast road cams and a six speed box for under a thousand pounds and that includes buying the car.

I've got the engine, gearbox, car and lots of enthusiasm so I'm giong to start by modifying the bulkhead, finding a top engine mount, and repositioning the radiator all of which should cost pennies so watch this space

[jamiej 0]

Under a grand ... that sounds like it should be a bit of a feat, i think i 205 donor would cost around £1k let alone an Mi16 conversion.

 

Purely from my research ;

Mi16 Engine - £300

Fast Road cams - £500 pair

Cam Verniers - £200 pair

Engine sundries etc - £200

 

Thats £1200 without a car, conversion parts (manifold, ECU etc)

 

Under a grand would be awesome, if you manage it, let me know how !!! i would be very intersted.

how much did the 1.9 cost you ???

 

I assume your doing all the work yourself.

[Alastairh 47]

gti6 is the way to go

 

As Jonnie says GTI6 is the way to go.

 

For a track car, you don't really want a mi. once you start getting suspension and your confidence up to a high factor, you'll soon be restricted by oil surge. Just read dream waevers thread from Oulton last week

 

take the engines jonnie was selling...

 

GTi6 package (everything you need) for £500 - Well engine ash. chuck another £180ish and it'll be serviced, new clutch and all the odds and sods to make it fit properly.

Rebuild for £1k max i would have thought? (presuming standard?) Why? Buy one with 50k on, and it'll give loads of abuse.

Jenvies about £750? - around there with manifold aren't they.

Emerald + setting up £750? - £900ish mapped with you building the loom.

 

if your wanting to go down the 16v route and look into turning aswell, getting the basic item is vital. have a read of kates thread with her GTI6 on bodies compared to her mi, and cammed mi on the same rollers and same bodies

 

Alastair

[sutol 0]

Under a grand ... that sounds like it should be a bit of a feat, i think i 205 donor would cost around £1k let alone an Mi16 conversion.

 

Purely from my research ;

Mi16 Engine - £300

Fast Road cams - £500 pair

Cam Verniers - £200 pair

Engine sundries etc - £200

 

Thats £1200 without a car, conversion parts (manifold, ECU etc)

 

Under a grand would be awesome, if you manage it, let me know how !!! i would be very intersted.

how much did the 1.9 cost you ???

 

I assume your doing all the work yourself.

Car ; 'H' reg 1.9 GTi with 4 nearly new tyres(AVONS) and 9+ months MOT £ 50.00

Engine ; Alloy block Mi16 with fast road cams fitted £ 350.00

Box ; 6 speed Pug box source unknown £ 200.00

Hoping not to spend more than this getting it running £ 200.00

total £ 900.00

Doing work myself so head ported for free and have the help of an enthusiastic Pug mechanic for free also

Edited November 25, 2007 by sutol

[jackherer 543]

Under a grand ... that sounds like it should be a bit of a feat

 

A few years ago me and a mate bought a non running 205 1.6 GTI for £30 from someone on this forum and a running mot failure BX 16v from ebay for £62. £30 + £62 = £92 So for a grand you could build ten 205 Mi16s.

[jamiej 0]

Fair enough, good for you buddy, all the best on getting your Mi16 done, Are there many 205 GTIs knocking around for £50, the only ones that i would consider for a conversion (ie, no rust, tidy bodywork and interior) are going for well over a grand ??

 

 

Im gonna do some more looking into the GTI6 engine tonight, cheers for the advice.

 

Jamie

[jackherer 543]

The £92 205 Mi16 that I built is just an example, I don't expect you to find one that cheaply but if you look around they are still out there.

 

A donor 306 gti6 can be found for silly money but not on peugeot forums or ebay (unless you are very lucky)

[jamiej 0]

OkiDoki, so is it best to get the donor then from a scappy. The only problem is that i havent got the space to store another car. My idea was to buy the engine and all the bits i could store/afford, then sell my current car and get a 205 to stick the newly built engine in. Can the driveshafts, hubs and brakes be used on the 205 striaght from the 306 GTi6.

 

Thanks

Jamie

[jackherer 543]

Hubs and brakes can be used, the driveshafts are too long although you might be able to swap the cv joints across to 205 shafts.

[jamiej 0]

Just to get some idea,

 

I just got a quote from a Breaker on eBay (i know i know)

 

He wants £750 for engine and ECU

£150 for gearbox

 

Is this silly money, what kinda money could i get the above for if i shopped around, i would like to get the whole lot, a MOT failed car for example, but cannot afford the outlay. I would need to the buy the bits in separately.

 

What have other ppl got an Engine (GTI6) and gearbox for, im gonna check the local breakers i think, £900 just for th engine and gearbox seems very very steep to me.

 

Thanks,

Jamie

[cybernck 402 1 Cars]

check the For Sale section as i think jonnie205 can do them cheaper!