Type Of Place To Have Tracking Done?

[Dream Weaver 2]

Well I've had my new Parada's fitted, and I've finally had the track rod ends added that I bought last year so that's all suspension components renewed this past 12 months and I now desparetly need the tracking doing, as the steering wheel is off centre so I assume the rack/TRE's needs sorting.

 

What type of place is best to go to though? Kwik Fit, Independant tyre place, or a proper alignment place?

 

Anyone know anywhere around Lancs, and what sort of cost am I looking at.

[Toddy 8]

Phoenix Motorsport in Accrington, they charge £60 for an elise where everything is adjustable

[Dave 0]

Avoid anywhere that sells tyres at its main business - ie kwikfit etc.

Call me cynical if you like, but its hardly in their best interests to do the job properly is it?

 

I HATE trying to find somewhere to get tracking done as frankly, nowhere I have tried have ever done it 100% to my satisfaction, that ranges from fast-fit places to "specialist" garages. All of them were at best half-assed and some were significantly worse.

 

I have built my own basic tracking guages and now do it myself, that way I know its done properly. The only problem is I sometimes have difficulty finding the manufacturers specs for what the car should be set to.

[Dream Weaver 2]

I was worried that would be the case

 

Cheers Toddy, may give them a try although £60 is more than I was expecting, though I assume that is for a full 4 wheel alignment job.

[Toddy 8]

I was worried that would be the case

 

Cheers Toddy, may give them a try although £60 is more than I was expecting, though I assume that is for a full 4 wheel alignment job.

 

iirc the guy is named Ollie and an ex F1 engineer, I would rather pay alot once and be happy, may be less since camber and castor are fixed on a205.

[GLPoomobile 958]

This is one of my pet hates too. One of the things I brought up is the fact that a lot of places will only adjust the TRE on one side to bring the tracking in to spec, which saves them time, but they should actually be adjusted equally on both sides. There's been a lot of debate about it previously on here, with some people saying it's not necessary to adjust equally on both sides, but I don;t care, I know I'm right

 

Anthony and a few others have recommended finding a place that has old Dunlop tracking gauges instead of doing 4 wheel laser alignment.

[Dave 0]

Of course you are right! Each time they adjust just one end, the steering rack is moved slightly off-centre so when you drive straight the steering wheel sits on the piss.

 

The proper way to do it is to block the steering wheel straight ahead and adjust both sides to spec from there.

The there are all sorts of subtelties like some cars need to be loaded with weights in the front to compress the suspension, some cars should have this done with engine runnning for the power steering system for some reason and some should be done engine off.....then you get cars with adjustable camber and castor too, and each adjustment of one variable skews the others so it all needs to be checked and re-checked.

There is a lot of work to get it right, and its pretty important with just a couple of mm making all the difference, so some barely literate ape in a fast-fit boilersuit rushing the job so its done in the alloted 20 minutes or so isnt the best person to entrust the job with. Especially when worn-out tyres are what pay his wages.

Edited November 15, 2007 by Dave

[GLPoomobile 958]

Of course you are right! Each time they adjust just one end, the steering rack is moved slightly off-centre so when you drive straight the steering wheel sits on the piss.

 

The proper way to do it is to block the steering wheel straight ahead and adjust both sides to spec from there.

The there are all sorts of subtelties like some cars need to be loaded with weights in the front to compress the suspension, some cars should have this done with engine runnning for the power steering system for some reason and some should be done engine off.....then you get cars with adjustable camber and castor too, and each adjustment of one variable skews the others so it all needs to be checked and re-checked.

There is a lot of work to get it right, and its pretty important with just a couple of mm making all the difference, so some barely literate ape in a fast-fit boilersuit rushing the job so its done in the alloted 20 minutes or so isnt the best person to entrust the job with.

 

Nice to know I'm not the only sane person on here................................(contrary to public opinion )

[Dream Weaver 2]

I read your posts about that earlier Steve, and I would agree with you also, I could never see the point of just doing one side as they are independant.

 

I'll give that Ollie bloke a ring shortly, see what he says. Just hope he can fit me in as it must be done before Oulton next Wed - also have to fit new sump, lower drivers seat, fix fan wiring etc etc before then

[Beastie 1]

Nice to know I'm not the only sane person on here................................(contrary to public opinion )

 

mate - you are the sanest most sensible person I know. Sorry I had to write this with a crayon but I'm not allowed anything sharp.........

 

 

 

actually you are quite correct about adjusting on both sides - if you don't then the ackermann geometry will be incorrect giving wildly inaccurate toe on turns.

[pug_ham 245 3 Cars]

The place I take my car does adjust both sides (on my car anyway) but maybe that because I've always asked to make sure the wheel stay central as when I got my STDT I could turn round in the turning circle by my mums house in one direction but not the other.

 

I agree though, avoid places like Kwik-fit etc like the plague.

 

They charge ~£40 for tracking so I'd go for the place in Accrington if I were you Simon.

 

Graham.

[Guest smokinslim]

actually you are quite correct about adjusting on both sides - if you don't then the ackermann geometry will be incorrect giving wildly inaccurate toe on turns.

 

and a tighter turning circle on one side than the other (according to my college tutor anyway).

 

Edit: jus seen Graham's post above lol...

Edited November 15, 2007 by smokinslim

[Dream Weaver 2]

OK folks, big thanks to Toddy, and for everyones advice here

 

Just spoken to Oliver at Phoenix and its booked in for 9am Monday. He seemed a bit surprised it was a 205 GTI until I said its full spec and for the track.

 

Seemed like a nice chap, very enthusiastic and says he will do the full 4 wheel alignment and tracking for both track rod ends, not just singly so sounds good - good to have motorsport places nearby, they are normally down south.

 

Takes 2 hours, costs £60 so can't be bad. Not sure what to do in Accy for 2 hours though

[jackherer 543]

actually you are quite correct about adjusting on both sides - if you don't then the ackermann geometry will be incorrect giving wildly inaccurate toe on turns.

 

^^^^ This is SO important (on a 205GTI particularly in my experience, 'normal' cars are spongey enough to absorb slight geometry issues).

 

Incorrect ackermann is immediately noticeable as the steering loads up very differently depending on wether you are turning right or left. It took me ages to figure this out, I had to draw loads of diagrams etc to get my head round it. The average tyre fitter goes glassy eyed when you say things like ackermann angle, they remember the words from their training or whatever but they don't actually understand what it means. I've ended up buying an old school computerised 4 wheel laser aligner so I can do it myself in future and know its right (and also play with alternative settings).

 

http://www.answers.com/topic/ackermann-ste...?cat=technology

 

While we're on the subject I have a few issues in my mind surrounding ackermann angle on 205 GTIs, especially those fitted with 309 wishbones/steering racks. If the ackermann angle is based on the length of the wheelbase surely when putting the wider 309 front track on a 205 the therotical intersecion point then falls behind the rear axle and results in scubbing (and presumably reduced grip) on turns...?

[Alastairh 47]

Sounds fair enough.

 

Shame your not down my way. As i have a place and hes the daddys. My 205 still 15k on has nice straight alignment. My front Paradas are running a little thin now (I blame my arb and round abouts - soo much fun) and they are worn completely evenly along side my 309 wish bones.

 

He does 4 wheel alignment with the printout. And i know what people are going to say is, you don't need 4 wheel alignment for 205s as you can only adjust the track rod ends on the front, but its for accuracy. After watching him setup a couple of cars, it just shows how vague some gauges are but hes done my 205 + 306 within 45 mins, charges #25.

 

Also does bigger cars, like my Dads Audi A8 4.2 Quattro sport, and mates S15 Silvia (the one Ben posted pics of 2 weeks back). These had alot more adjustment on them and spent an afternoon on them making sure they were spot on and charged #105.

 

Its one thing having 30 grands worth of kit, its just finding someone that knows how to use it

 

Good luck, it should be awesome once them tyres have scrubbed in and start giving the car some more abuse down the lanes

 

Al

[jackherer 543]

He does 4 wheel alignment with the printout. And i know what people are going to say is, you don't need 4 wheel alignment for 205s as you can only adjust the track rod ends on the front, but its for accuracy.

 

I couldn't agree more. The machine I've just bought has a function to check caster and ackermann angles which involves swinging the steering from lock to lock while the computer samples and that has to reference the rear wheels and ackermann is corrected with the track rod ends. A couple of the 205s I look after have some extra adjustments such as eccentric top mounts and rose jointed wishbones so there is some other stuff I can adjust but even on a standard 205 4 wheel alignment is critical so that there is a vehicle centerline reference and also a thrust angle reference. Although on a 205 those two references should be very close to each other, however if they aren't it suggests worn/bent parts.

 

Its one thing having 30 grands worth of kit, its just finding someone that knows how to use it

 

Yes, its complex stuff, I am having trouble getting my head round a lot of the theories behind vehicle geometry. Its helped to build models out of bent wire so I can move things around and see how one change affects others and things like that, two dimensional diagrams are of limited value.

[Beastie 1]

While we're on the subject I have a few issues in my mind surrounding ackermann angle on 205 GTIs, especially those fitted with 309 wishbones/steering racks. If the ackermann angle is based on the length of the wheelbase surely when putting the wider 309 front track on a 205 the therotical intersecion point then falls behind the rear axle and results in scubbing (and presumably reduced grip) on turns...?

 

Yes it does -- but I don't see it as too much cause for alarm: The vehicle in this state will not have perfect akermann geometry - something which it has in common with most post war cars. The days of perfect ackermann died out after the 1930s and now some degree of "scrub" is always built in. Some of the alignment tools which I use measure toe on turns as a comparative measure between the course the vehicle is taking and the direction the wheel is pointing. The documentation for this equipment suggests a maximum error of 1 degree for toe on turns in order to avoid tyre wear, and from experience this is realistic. 1 degree is a large error: A vehicle with 14 inch wheels and 1/16" toe in only has around 1/4 degree of straight course toe in anyway. Maladjusted steering tie rods can easily cause a toe on turn error which exceeds 1 degree because ackermann errors are increased in a parabolic fashion. Errors caused by the phenomenon you describe are (as far as I can reason out) more or less linear and I would guess not be likely to stray outside the suggested limits.

[Alastairh 47]

I couldn't agree more. The machine I've just bought has a function to check caster and ackermann angles which involves swinging the steering from lock to lock while the computer samples and that has to reference the rear wheels and ackermann is corrected with the track rod ends. A couple of the 205s I look after have some extra adjustments such as eccentric top mounts and rose jointed wishbones so there is some other stuff I can adjust but even on a standard 205 4 wheel alignment is critical so that there is a vehicle centerline reference and also a thrust angle reference. Although on a 205 those two references should be very close to each other, however if they aren't it suggests worn/bent parts.

Yes, its complex stuff, I am having trouble getting my head round a lot of the theories behind vehicle geometry. Its helped to build models out of bent wire so I can move things around and see how one change affects others and things like that, two dimensional diagrams are of limited value.

 

Yeah. Out of intrest how do you get on with ecc top mounts? Do you find they are worth fitting over standard items with good shocks etc? And for the road?

 

I wasn't really going to bother with them for my new 205 (its going to be a nice spec, and need suspension + drive train to keep up with the power).

 

Only asking as you seem to of setup a few systems and still gathering research before i finally build it.

 

Al

[Beastie 1]

And i know what people are going to say is, you don't need 4 wheel alignment for 205s as you can only adjust the track rod ends on the front, but its for accuracy.

 

 

I'd go for a 4 wheel alignment on *any* car which uses a steering rack if the operator knows what they are doing! If you look at the ackermann diagram which relates to jackherer's post it is clear how important is the intersection at the rear drive line centre. Even a small misalignment of the body shell will cause an error of this intersection point. Now bear in mind that all cars are built within some limits of tolerance so some are going to have more accurate geometry than others. Add to this the fact that even a minor accident can cause a small amount of body shell distortion and you might start to wonder how accurate your ackermann geometry is. A 4 wheel alignment check will identify these problems. If there is an ackermann error then the tracking in the straight ahead course can still be set exactly as it should be but the track on a turning course will become progressively further out the more the steering is turned. Careful adjustment of the steering tie rods can average these errors accross the entire steering range - often so that no error exceeds generally accepted scrub limits.

[jackherer 543]

Yes it does -- but I don't see it as too much cause for alarm: The vehicle in this state will not have perfect akermann geometry - something which it has in common with most post war cars. The days of perfect ackermann died out after the 1930s and now some degree of "scrub" is always built in. Some of the alignment tools which I use measure toe on turns as a comparative measure between the course the vehicle is taking and the direction the wheel is pointing. The documentation for this equipment suggests a maximum error of 1 degree for toe on turns in order to avoid tyre wear, and from experience this is realistic. 1 degree is a large error: A vehicle with 14 inch wheels and 1/16" toe in only has around 1/4 degree of straight course toe in anyway. Maladjusted steering tie rods can easily cause a toe on turn error which exceeds 1 degree because ackermann errors are increased in a parabolic fashion. Errors caused by the phenomenon you describe are (as far as I can reason out) more or less linear and I would guess not be likely to stray outside the suggested limits.

 

OK that helps a lot, thanks. I'm looking forward to getting my alignment machine going, it will be very educational...

 

I don't remember any posts referring to ackermann on here before, there has been mention of uneven track rod end adjustment causing different amounts of lock each side (I seem to remember pumaracing describing being able to turn into his driveway from one direction but not the other) but until a few months ago I hadn't realised there was more to it than that. I had an in depth discussion with someone in the real world and he mentioned the parabolic nature of ackermann steering and I just nodded and smiled while making a mental note to read up later to figure out what the hell he was on about which resulted in my purchase of a wheel aligner about two months later.

[jackherer 543]

Yeah. Out of intrest how do you get on with ecc top mounts? Do you find they are worth fitting over standard items with good shocks etc? And for the road?

 

I wasn't really going to bother with them for my new 205 (its going to be a nice spec, and need suspension + drive train to keep up with the power).

 

Only asking as you seem to of setup a few systems and still gathering research before i finally build it.

 

Al

 

 

We haven't really had them long enough to comment, one set came on a prepped shell we bought (Lee Etches old one, the 240bhp 8v monster minus the engine) and I haven't fitted the second set yet. The ones I bought came from Compbrake, they were a very good price and look great, and also the replacement bearings are also a very good price.

[McPikie 0]

Surely all this is bollocks if the car has been in a smack and the rear beam is pissed??

[jackherer 543]

Surely all this is bollocks if the car has been in a smack and the rear beam is pissed??

Of course, but if you don't know the history of the car only a four wheel alignment will reveal it. A two wheel alignment will just set the toe and send you on your way.

 

My rear beam had ended up with unmatched trailing arms during a rebuild (one side had loads more toe and camber) and I'd had the tracking done twice without it being noticed which cost me a lot of money and time.

[pug309twin40s 1]

i've always used protyre to do my tracking. £24 ish, print out with ride height and few other details which is nice.

 

never had a problem, had my goodwood, old granada cosworth and another car done at same place.

[pug_ham 245 3 Cars]

Moved here, its taken on a good spread of replies to make it more than a general question imo & will be of use in future for those contemplating a Kwik-fit tracking set up.

 

Simon, let me know what they are like, I might take mine there sometime.

 

Graham.