[trackday_prep] Project 150

[RossD 44]

Following on from this monstor thread: http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=65762

I thought I'd start a new topic on my engine build and it's progress.

 

The aim is an engine to go into my base model 205 GT to have a right hoot at weekends and on trackdays. Origianlly I was going to go with an ally 1360 block and 106 Rallye head, but finding a bottom end with the parts I needed was starting to get hard.... Then I got offered a TU5 bottom end for free.

 

Current build spec is:

 

Totally rebuilt TU5J2 (From a 106 XSi 1.6) bottom end

106 Rallye head (Also TU5J2)

4900645 CatCam (280 degree, 11.25mm lift) and CatCam Vernier Pulley

Standard compression (For now... long story)

45mm Jenvey SF Throttle Bodies

Custom inlet manifold made by Sandy

Custom right hand engine mount to clear manifolds

Modified 4-2-1 Exhaust Manifold (From 106 to 205 fitment)

KMS ECU

 

For pictures of this little lot see: http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v727/ros...Engine%20build/

 

I chose the TU5 head as it has the largest valves you can get on a TU Blacktop head and seems to flow reasonably well in standard form. For it's first incarnation, this head will be standard, i.e No flow work.

The camshaft was a bit of a lottery. It came recommended from Matt at QEP. Sandy seems to recommend the 615 or 646 profiles for TU engines, so typical of me I chose the one he hadn't used yet

The Throttle bodies and manifold came from Sam on this forum who is now building a monster XU turbo build. I got the mount from Jrod but again this originally came through Sam too.

All the rebuild parts, the cam and vernier came from Matt at QEP. Top guy and very competitive prices.

 

The aim is ultimatly for 150bhp and about 115 - 120 lb/ft Torque. Not much by todays hot hatch standards, but in a 750kg 205 I reckon it will keep up with a lot of other machinery

 

Current progress is that the cylinder head is now built and ready to go onto the block. The block has been painted, and the crank is in and torqued up. Next step is re-ring the pistons, install into block and then the head can be attached to the block. (See the sub album in the above link for latest pics)

Been to the stealers today and ordered some new con rod bolts, pick those up tomorrow.

 

You can follow progress here: Rossy.org.uk, its just a simple webpage I have cobbled together so I can record the progress it makes.

 

So thats it for now!

 

Keep it TU and keep it 8v!

Edited June 20, 2007 by RossD

[christopher 5 1 Cars]

Keep it TU and keep it 8v!

Hurra

[Sandy 191]

Lashings of ginger beer!

 

Keep us posted!

[Jrod 7]

I recognise a few of those bits.

 

Good work gotta love the 8v TU.

[RossD 44]

I recognise a few of those bits.

 

Good work gotta love the 8v TU.

 

Yup, I think I can confidently say this is a 205GtiDrivers "Forum Car"; All the expertise has come from help from members of this forum and the parts have come from either members or Forum sponsers!

[calvinhorse 870]

looking good ross! so thats how to make the engine mount!! i just chopped mine and welded both parts together "pikey style!"

 

are you planning on sorting a oil pressure and temp gauge? and water temp gauge? i am but im struggling abit?

[rally ax 0]

The camshaft was a bit of a lottery. It came recommended from Matt at QEP. Sandy seems to recommend the 615 or 646 profiles for TU engines, so typical of me I chose the one he hadn't used yet

 

-well I've had good results using the 645 in my 1360 so it should be good in the 1600

[AdamP 0]

750kgs and 150bhp = 200bhp/tonne which is about 25bhp/tonne more than a Focus ST or Mk5 Golf GTi. Should be quick!

[Jrod 7]

I'm interested how light I can make mine with ~135bhp.

 

Is a GT a 5 door shell Ross?

Edited June 20, 2007 by Jrod

[RossD 44]

I'm interested how light I can make mine with ~135bhp.

 

Is a GT a 5 door shell Ross?

 

Yep, 5door shell. I like to be different. I'm going to have fun if I decide to cage it, but then I like a challenge.

 

Current kerb weight is 790kg, thats with full interior etc etc. Loose the spare wheel and cage, interior etc etc and I might just be able to get it down to 750Kg.

[RossD 44]

-well I've had good results using the 645 in my 1360 so it should be good in the 1600

 

Ah thats good to know, I knew you were using a 280 degree CatCam but was unsure which one.

 

750kgs and 150bhp = 200bhp/tonne which is about 25bhp/tonne more than a Focus ST or Mk5 Golf GTi. Should be quick!

 

Yep, thats what I'm hoping. I've tried a few of these performance simulators that are floating around on the net. With the gearbox from a 106 XSi it estimates 0-60 in approx 6 and a bit seconds and 0-100 in about 16 seconds. How accurate it will be I'm not sure, but the figures from this program are scarily accurate for the other cars I have put in!

[Jrod 7]

Cant wait to get mine weighed, didn't realise they were that light. Especially with cut down doors polycarb windows, fibreglass bonnet + boot and the alloy block should get me down quite low.

 

not keen on the 5 door shell idea but each to their own.

[Sam 4]

Jrod, it should be pretty light as it was 750kg with no petrol in for me.

[Sandy 191]

For comparison, we weighed one of my customers 106 Rallye last week. With stripped interior, FRP bonnet, alloy 8v engine, OMP cage (28kg), FRP buckets, spare wheel in situ, steel wheels, glass, around half a tank of fuel, 785kg.

Not as light as you might think.

[RossD 44]

not keen on the 5 door shell idea but each to their own.

 

Thats exactly the idea... People see it and don't think anything of it. Then, on track, I overtake them

Not quite sure what the big idea is with the 3 door shell anyway...

[Jrod 7]

Jrod, it should be pretty light as it was 750kg with no petrol in for me.

 

Well i'm hoping for at least 725kg if not less then, I've gained a bit with the Cage but using the alloy block so that should stay roughly the same.

 

Thats exactly the idea... People see it and don't think anything of it. Then, on track, I overtake them

Not quite sure what the big idea is with the 3 door shell anyway...

 

Sleeper style, what are you doing to the running gear? wheels, brakes etc?

Edited June 21, 2007 by Jrod

[RossD 44]

Well i'm hoping for at least 700kg if not less then.

Sleeper style, what are you doing to the running gear? wheels, brakes etc?

 

Suspension will be GTi spec at the rear, probably leave at with rear drums at the moment. It's already got 205GTi spec brakes up front (247mm Vented with ATE calipers from 306), I'll keep those and upgrade if it needs it. I'm looking at a Gaz coilover kit for the front. If not, I'll look into OE shocks with SBC springs. Depends on budget! I've got a GTi subframe to put on so I can use the wishbones instead of track control arms.

Wheels will be Steels painted white ala Rallye stylee. Ultimate sleeper look

Edited June 21, 2007 by RossD

[TKH 0]

The cylinder head you have gone for will really hold you back. I would strongly recommend that you get it professionally ported. Or get a couple of standard black 1.6 MPI 8V as they cost next to nothing and are the best to port and then get a good book on porting and have a go your self if thats your thing. But I would recommend going to some one like Longmont or GMC and getting them to do it for you. Just have a look at your standard exhaust ports and you will see how very small they are. Then if you stick your finger down them you will feel how poor they really are. Its always best to do it correct in the first place. It will save you from having to rebuild it again and having to map it again.

[RossD 44]

The cylinder head you have gone for will really hold you back. I would strongly recommend that you get it professionally ported. Or get a couple of standard black 1.6 MPI 8V as they cost next to nothing and are the best to port and then get a good book on porting and have a go your self if thats your thing. But I would recommend going to some one like Longmont or GMC and getting them to do it for you. Just have a look at your standard exhaust ports and you will see how very small they are. Then if you stick your finger down them you will feel how poor they really are. Its always best to do it correct in the first place. It will save you from having to rebuild it again and having to map it again.

 

 

I know the exhaust ports aren't great on them as standard, the SSR is appaling (the inlet isn't too bad) and the seats need to be blended into the casting to make a smooth transition.

 

The whole point of this project is that 150bhp is the ultimate aim and if that has to be done in stages so be it! It will also be ineteresting to see how much power a standard head will produce and then a modified head...

 

After talking to Matt at QEP, its not just the ports that get attention when he does these, I think he reshapes the actual chambers as well. He quoted me about 12% better flow.

 

The proof will be in the pudding. I'm not expecting miracles from this first build phase, but for what it is I don't think the standard head is *that* bad?? (I/E ratio is 63% which isn't great I grant you... but without getting bigger valves you can't improve that)

Edited July 4, 2007 by RossD

[Sandy 191]

The cylinder head you have gone for will really hold you back. I would strongly recommend that you get it professionally ported.

 

I don't know why I always seem to find myself disagreeing with you, I promise you it's nothing personal, but this is important and a subject close to my heart.

 

The standard head is very good as it comes, as is often the case with Peugeots. There's a lot of spin frankly (not usually by the companies so much as forum praisers) about how much people achieve porting it. Optimising the flow is great for moving peak power up the rev range, but without giving much away, the reason well built TU 8v's perform almost to 16v standards, isn't just down to flow. In fact some of the work I've seen people do to improve the flow would be detrimental to the other elements of how the head works so well.

Getting the inlet tracts and cam timing/piston acceleration relationship right is the key IMO. The exhaust ports are a little on the small side, but you can get a fabulous spread of power by keeping them smallish and getting the other elements right.

[RossD 44]

I don't know why I always seem to find myself disagreeing with you, I promise you it's nothing personal, but this is important and a subject close to my heart.

 

The standard head is very good as it comes, as is often the case with Peugeots. There's a lot of spin frankly (not usually by the companies so much as forum praisers) about how much people achieve porting it. Optimising the flow is great for moving peak power up the rev range, but without giving much away, the reason well built TU 8v's perform almost to 16v standards, isn't just down to flow. In fact some of the work I've seen people do to improve the flow would be detrimental to the other elements of how the head works so well.

Getting the inlet tracts and cam timing/piston acceleration relationship right is the key IMO. The exhaust ports are a little on the small side, but you can get a fabulous spread of power by keeping them smallish and getting the other elements right.

 

Harks back to the old adage, its not peak power that counts, its the area under the curve!!

 

A nice shiney 4-2-1 manifold arrived today, I'll get pics put up on my site at the weekend! Its going to need modifying to fit the 205, but that wont be too hard at all.

Edited July 4, 2007 by RossD

[TKH 0]

I don't know why I always seem to find myself disagreeing with you, I promise you it's nothing personal, but this is important and a subject close to my heart.

 

The standard head is very good as it comes, as is often the case with Peugeots. There's a lot of spin frankly (not usually by the companies so much as forum praisers) about how much people achieve porting it. Optimising the flow is great for moving peak power up the rev range, but without giving much away, the reason well built TU 8v's perform almost to 16v standards, isn't just down to flow. In fact some of the work I've seen people do to improve the flow would be detrimental to the other elements of how the head works so well.

Getting the inlet tracts and cam timing/piston acceleration relationship right is the key IMO. The exhaust ports are a little on the small side, but you can get a fabulous spread of power by keeping them smallish and getting the other elements right.

 

No worries. Its always good to hear other peoples take on things. Especially if they have tried them. think were just both srong willed. Its something I am passionate about too.

 

Just out of interest who does your head work? I ask as I have never known freeing up the exhaust port to reduce significantly torque in the lower rev range. I have always found going milder on the cam and use a good head tends to work very well. With him after 150bhp i just think head is the way to go. But thats the way I would do it. But guess there is more than one way to crack a egg.

[Sandy 191]

Mark Shillaber mostly, although I have used QEP heads as well and my own.

 

I don't know if what I said made sense completely, but headwork is beneficial if it compliments the rest of the spec, but the Rallye/XSi head is exceptionally effective overall for a factory head, Peugeot clearly knew what was important.

 

It does depend a great deal on how you want to approach the spec holistically I think, I tend to try and maximise the torque and spread of power, so that the engine doesn't need to be revved hard to work. Reducing wear, risking less and enabling standard final drive ratios to be effective. I would definitely agree with keeping the cam mild, particularly in a 1360.

[Sam 4]

My 1600 engine in its last form went really well. I was going to carry it on and use a 16v bottom end that sandy had rebuilt but i got a bonus and decided i wanted to try a turbo engine out in a different shell so i am building a 306. I do sometimes regret it - the old car was so much fun, sounded so mad too, a cam really makes an engine sound more purposeful sometimes.

 

You'll do well with those bodies too, i tried about 4 different inlet setups and even the dcoe tb's were no real comparison. Sandy done a brilliant design, worked really well and it's only good for people now that he's setup business selling parts. He's certainly no company making sales pitches left right and center in an attempt to get business, like a certain scottish firm.

[RossD 44]

Right, time for a bit of an update!

The engine is built and is now just waiting for the car to be prepped so it can be installed. I have the whole front end of the car stripped currently, just treating some minor rust that is around the engine bay. I've celaned the entire engine bay (couple of spots still to do) with a brush and soapy water, its come out quite nicely. I'm going to be lazy and spray the bits in primer with white hammerite.... Couple of pics below:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v727/ros...ld/STA71619.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v727/ros...ld/STA71627.jpg

 

More pics can be found on my website here