My Mi Oil Surge Thread

[Turbo7379 3]

I've fitted a rebuilt 1.9 MI16 into my track/rally 205 & I suffered oil surge on my first event , a saloon car race . My next event was a rallysprint & I wanted to avoid a repeat of the last day as I had to lift off when the oil light came on .

 

After reading all the useful info on this site I decided to go for something similiar to the petert solution . I tried a local Peugeot breaker for a XU10 baffled sump but after hours searching & removing sumps we gave up .

 

As the rallysprint was the next day I decided to make my own baffled sump . I already had the deeper steel sump from a 405 SRI & using some alloy sheet & a door hinge I made this .

 

 

The baffle is bolted to 4 brackets made from stainless steel angle which I welded to the sump . I had to cut a section from the trapdoor as it was fouling the oil pump pick-up & not opening fully .

 

I'd bought a spare 1.9 GTI rolling shell recently which proved useful . The guy was storing it in his Uncles shed & he wanted the shed cleared out so the car came with any other peugeot parts lying around . This included a 1.9 GTI block with a spun big end , 2 x 1.9 heads , a 1.9 MI16 block with a spun big end , several starters , 2 alternators , 2 oil pumps & misc other parts .

 

One of the oil pumps was fitted with a pump baffle & a plastic chain guard that bolts to the pump . The guy I bought the shell from also had a scrap 2.0 MI16 block so I guess the pump was off it ? The 1.9 MI oil pump hasn't the holes to attach the chain guard but I was able to use the baffle plate . I had to cut a bit off the end to clear the oil temp sensor but otherwise it fitted fine .

 

The combo of the sump baffle & the oil pump baffle seems to have helped as the oil pressure stayed steady all day at the rallysprint .

 

I'm planning to extend the oil pick-up to make use of the extra capacity sump & extend the oil pump baffle by 15mm . I might also fit the other oil pump so that it will enable me to fit the chain guard , though I'm not sure how that helps . Not sure if I'll bother with a windage tray - I'll see if the current mods work first .

 

I'm doing the saloon racing again on 3rd June & I'll update this thread after that .

[VisaGTi16v 1]

I use a Peugeot Sport one in mine. Pressure has been ok for 2 seasons of sprints on slicks. Admittedly I only have the standard slow gauge but I am about to rig up my own bit of circuit board to an external light that will light instantly at the voltage for whereever I set it, ie 1.5 bar so may see it flicker then but ive never seen it move in the slightest even on long bends

 

 

[petert 607]

If you're going to extend the pickup you'll need either the deeper A/C XU10 sump or the A/C XU9 8V alloy sump - http://www.taylor-eng.com/sump/wetsump.htm. I take it the later isn't very common in the UK?

 

The pump with the baffle and the chain guard is the 2L pump. Use it together with the 26T drive sprocket and a 52 link chain. I make extended pump baffles to suit the various sump profiles. If you extend the sump with a 15mm spacer plate there will be a corresponding large gap under the pump baffle!

 

Good effort on the sump. If you look at the pic. on my website, you'll notice the baffle has to line up with the centre of one of the sump bolt holes, to avoid the door fouling on the pickup.

[Turbo7379 3]

The sump I used is a steel sump the same depth as a XU10 sump & I'm using it along with the spacer plate to give me the extra sump capacity . I put the baffle as far over as I could but the sump bung prevented me going any further over . I'm still hoping to source a XU10 baffled sump but this will do in the meantime .

 

I don't think I'll bother with the 26T sprocket as I can't see the advantage of running the pump faster . The problem lies in the oil not returning to the pump fast enough & IMO running the pump faster can only make this worse . What's the theory behind running the pump faster ? I'm guessing the 2L oil pump is fitted with the stronger spring ?

 

I'm guessing the reason for the chain guard is to prevent the chain foaming the oil ?

 

I intend to add 15mm onto the bottom of the sump baffle though it would probably be easier to make a new one from steel sheet .

 

I'm also trying to think up a way of an early warning light , probably using one of those adjustable oil pressure switches linked up to a red LED on the dash . What pressure should this be set for ?

[petert 607]

VDO sell them for approx. AUS$45. I like the brass ones myself, set to 25psi. Use an ultra bright LED or similar.

[Turbo7379 3]

What thread size is the std oil pressure sender ?

 

I need to get an adaptor tee but all the listings I've seen say M14x1.5 for a peugeot but I measured my sender tonight & it's 15.8mm .

[Turbo7379 3]

Update

 

I bought myself an adjustable oil pressure switch & an adaptor tee off ebay ( original oil switch thread is M16x1.5 ) . This is the ebay shop - http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Matt-Lewis-Racing . He doesn't list the M16 adaptors but keeps them in stock .

 

 

Using adaptors , a pressure gauge & my compressor I preset the switch to 25 PSI .

 

I managed to get it fitted by just removing the throttle body & using a shortened spanner .

 

I wired it up to an ultra-bright 9 LED tail light bulb which I glued to the corner of the instrument panel , which is very hard to miss when lit up .

 

 

 

I competed in the racing on 3rd June & the limited mods have helped a bit . The track was very wet but I had fitted a KAAZ diff which made my cornering much tighter . The new oil light only came on on 1 tight hairpin but the normal light didn't come on at all . What was more worrying was that the new oil pressure light was coming on at idle after the race & the oil was warmed up . I guess I'll have to squeeze in the mocul oil cooler I have to help with that . I've also found a local source for the Castrol Edge 10w60 at a decent price . I'm currently using the Mobil 1 15w50 so the thicker Castrol should help the oil pressure when hot .

 

My oil pump extension has arrived from Petert , should get it fitted this week . I'll extend the oil pump baffle & fit it to the 2.0 pump along with the chain guard . The gears in the 2.0 oil pump are a lot bigger than the 1.9 so that should help with the oil pressure .

 

I can't seem to source a baffled sump - if anyone has one for sale drop me a PM .

[petert 607]

If the new sender is set to 25 psi expect it to come on at idle. Most engines run 10-15 psi at idle. I thought the gears on the pumps were the same, but the 2L crank sprocket is 26T instead of 22T? This will also help your idle oil pressure.

[Turbo7379 3]

The 2L pump gears are a good bit bigger than the 1.9 pump gears . I'll try & take a pic before I fit the pump . I'm not changing the crank sprocket / chain yet , too much hassle stripping off the cam belt , crank sprocket , etc . If my planned mods don't work I'll order the parts & fit them .

 

Good to know about the idle oil pressure , I was getting worried . I did notice that the oil surge didn't happen until the oil was getting quite hot so I'll fit the oil cooler anyway .

[petert 607]

The 2L pump gears are a good bit bigger than the 1.9 pump gears .

 

I don't understand that. Are we talking about the gears in the pump? Or the sprocket itself?

 

The 2L pumps I've used have been from S16 engines. They definitely had the same size sprocket at the 1.9L 8V and Mi16 pumps. When you add the 26T crank sprocket, it gives the right length for the standard 52 link chain.

 

Perhaps there's two types of 2L pumps?

 

The last thing you want to do is run a bigger sprocket on the pump. That will make it spin slower.

[Turbo7379 3]

It's the gears inside the pump that are different . Here's a photo of the gti pump (RHS) & the other pump (LHS) .

 

 

The GTI gears are 31mm OD & the other ones are 37mm OD so it should flow more oil for the same crank speed .

 

I'm not sure what this pump is off as it came with a box of pug parts I got but it was fitted with a pump baffle & the guy I got it of had a scrap 2L Mi engine . The numbers on the pump are 3.2870.02.21.A and 9431291021 .

 

I must try & contact the guy & see does he still have the sump as it should be baffled . I also could take the 26T sprocket & chain off the scrap block .

[Mandic 0]

I have also noticed that, when I dismantled few pumps, Mi16 pumps were like the one on the right and pump from S16 was like the one on the left.

 

Cheers

 

Ziga

[Turbo7379 3]

Guess it's time for an update .

 

I bought one of petert's pump extensions & got it welded onto the 2L oil pump . I've no access now to a tig welder so I got a local guy to do it for me . He charged me £5 & also threw in a piece of s/s sheeting which I used to make a deeper oil pump baffle .

 

 

I did some measurements & even though the sump is 15mm deeper the baffle only had to be 11 mm deeper than the old one !

 

I fitted the deeper baffle to the 2L pump & fitted this to the engine .

 

 

Everything went smoothly until I tried to refit the sump . The home-made sump baffle I fitted was fouling the pump . WTF ?? I discovered that the 2L pump is approx 20mm longer than the original 1.9 pump .

 

I thought I could simply move the sump baffle further down the sump but if I did this the pump would still foul on the sump plug . I had no choice but to source a GTI6 sump .

 

Tried every breakers over here but no luck . No luck on here either but brianthemagical put me onto the 306 GTI6 forum & I bought one from 1 of their members , though it cost me £70 inc delivery !

 

I got everything fitted last week & did a rally last Saturday . The stage was bone dry & I was really pushing but the latest combination seems to have done the trick as the oil gauge never moved & the oil light stayed off , even on a long LH hairpin which always brought on the light . Also the oil pressure is higher & the extra oil light never comes on , even with hot oil . Guess the 2L oil pump must produce more flow , increasing the pressure .

 

So my oil surge problems seem to have been cured by using a 2L oil pump with an extended pickup , extended oil pump baffle & a GTI6 sump together with the 15mm sump spacer .

[petert 607]

I did some measurements & even though the sump is 15mm deeper the baffle only had to be 11 mm deeper than the old one !

The bottom of the sump is parallel to the ground, not at 30 deg like the block, so the exact measure is cos30x15 = approx. 13mm.

 

So my oil surge problems seem to have been cured by using a 2L oil pump with an extended pickup , extended oil pump baffle & a GTI6 sump together with the 15mm sump spacer .

 

That's the same as what I use. Good isn't it! I'm going to video my next event with a new Suco pressure switch set to 25psi.

[skeggyrik 3]

Not that I doubted PeterT's remedy, as he swears by it but that is good to hear. I will be running the very same on my miami when I've put it back together.

 

In the new 205 I noticed the stop light and temp warning light (I think they come on togther) flick on at Cadwell very breifly at the Haripin. Didin't see it at any other time but it was first go on track so:

 

1) I was not that quick

2) I was lookin where I was going most of the time!

 

So it will be an issue in the future for me if not sorted.

[philfingers 5]

Turbo7379

Do you run a sumpguard with this setup and if so what sort is it and is there enough clearance?

I'm considering fitting on to my rally 205 but everyone said 'dry sump only'!

 

Thanks

 

Phil

[VisaGTi16v 1]

Update

 

I bought myself an adjustable oil pressure switch & an adaptor tee off ebay ( original oil switch thread is M16x1.5 ) . This is the ebay shop - http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Matt-Lewis-Racing . He doesn't list the M16 adaptors but keeps them in stock .

 

I just went to fit mine today, bought from the same place as you. After a lot of cursing I got my sensor out to find that the thread is much smaller than on my T Piece and the T Piece in your photo! The thread on my original sensor is the same smaller one as on the new adjustable sensor! My engines from a BX 16v but cant see why they would be different

 

To add insult to injury I then punctured the old sensor putting it back in so now the car has none doh! grr

[VisaGTi16v 1]

Here is mine. He said the T piece adapter was a newer ally style but I wonder why my BX engine has a smaller hole for the sensor?