How Far To Go With Standard Management?

[Doof 11]

Ok i'm trying to finally decide of an engine spec to build up this summer. I've bought a standard S16 engine and want to modify it for 180+bhp while retaining road manners etc as it's 95% road car.

 

What are my options while retaining the standard management? I dont want the added expense of TB's or ECU + mapping.

 

Headwork and cam will probably get me to where i'm looking and this would end up being ~£800 i'd imagine.

 

More CC's? Surely you can increase capacity while staying on standard management? Although saying that, the S16 has no AFM so presumable calculates air mass based on MAP sensor and known capacity?

 

I'll be going for a GTI-6 inlet manifold + some regrind cams no doubt but that would probably only see 165-170?

 

Thoughts anyone for that extra 15-20 ponies?

 

Edit: budget....as cheap as poss, rebuilding the engine will probably cost 500ish so i'm looking at the same again to total 1k...ish.

 

Lewis

Edited May 20, 2007 by Doof

[Toddy 8]

How about a Cat cam inlet with modified woodruff keys, that should get close to 180bhp for a £250 outlay

[petert 607]

I think injectors are the limiting factor. They only flow 196cc/min, so you'll battle to make 180hp regardless of the ECU.

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

Pair of cat cams (have a chat with matt sav).

 

SHORTENED inlet manifold.

 

GTi6 exhaust manifold modified to fit, just takes a bit of time but quite an easy conversion, I made one fit my XU9J4 head which is COMPLETLEY different. Those who say it cant be done or is near impossible havent got a clue and obviously havent done it.

 

Throw in a XU9J4 or XU9JA crank if your budget can stretch. This should easily see 175-180BHP if, as peter says, the injectors can hold out.

 

Maxi

[Doof 11]

I take it bigger injectors will screw everything up then? How does management on 1.9Mi16's or GTi-6's cope, are they all the same injectors and so all limited to around this power?

 

EDIT - that flow rate is really low, the emerald site says to estimate power by taking flow, dividing by 5 and multiplying by number of injectors...which gives 155bhp, exactly that of an S16...so they can't possible produce the power i'm looking at right? But then some people have modified S16's.

Edited May 21, 2007 by Doof

[DrSarty 100 1 Cars]

I'm interested in Doof's key question here.

 

He PM'd me about my engine, which I've already chosen will be running MS (in an updated early version from the states which uses the standard flywheel and pickup) but even I'm not sure on why we need to run aftermarket ECUs. I appreciate my engine will have greater displacement than standard, but I think what Lewis is driving at is WHY do we need after market ECUs or inparticular at what stage of modifying can the standard ECU no longer cope?

 

Point taken about injectors of course and I appreciate aftermarket ECUs are mappable which in itself is an advantage, but what happens if you make mods x,y & z but leave it on the std ECU?

 

Rich

[VisaGTi16v 1]

I have some GTi6 injectors to put in my 1.9 Mi16 but I read somewhere the other day that will make it over fuel by 24% or something so I need to learn what I need to do, presumably lowering the fuel pressure slightly etc.

 

That does sound weird if they calculate out to 155bhp, I know the standard Mi16 (160) ones can do 180 at 100% duty cycle

[16v205 9]

Is it motronic 3.2 in the s16's? I might be mistaken but if it is this ecu is mappable within reason.

You could then use slightly higher flow injectors like the gti-6 jobbies and have the car setup afterwards.

[Doof 11]

According to this site - http://mypugclub.tripod.com/id23.html

 

The S16 is indeed MP3.2. Be good news if it was mappable i suppose. Obviously sticking larger injectors on the standard ECU will overfuel because it has no way of knowing the injectors are injecting more fuel. This might be a way round it.

 

Can you elaborate on "mappable within reason"?

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

Basically if you want to go to the toruble of changing injectors do yourself a favout and spend around 400-450 quid on a second hand aftermarkett ecu. Otherwise you are wasting your time and will cause headaches for yourself.

 

You have to make the decision, either you go the whole hog, or you work with what you have got. Everyone wants big power for nothing and it dosent happen.

 

Maxi

[petert 607]

All is not lost my friend. I have successfully tested Mi16 injectors in an S16 engine with one of my Stage I cams. This was a road test with a Uego AFR meter and I can confirm that the mixtures varied from 12.5 under full load to high 13's on cruise. The standard S16 ECU couldn't pull the mixtures into closed loop (14.7:1) but that hardly matters. You just loose a few mpg. Consequently the management light was regularly on, but if you can live with that it's cheap upgrade. This will then provide enough fuel to make 180-185hp.

 

Don't spend unnecessary money on the head. Just make sure the guides are in good condition and recut the seats correctly. Use an 88mm crank and something like my Stage I cam. Together with the 214cc 205/405 injectors you'll have your 180hp (and some). The extra capacity will no doubt use up a bit more fuel and might even allow the S16 management to break into closed loop mode under cruise.

[DrSarty 100 1 Cars]

Just out of interest and with regards to injector flow rates restricting power on engines modified in other areas, will the GTi6 injectors currently fitted to my full GTi6 inlet tract impede power output with my 2.2L build please?

 

A friend has offered some 'red tops' and I don't know whether it would be necessary.

 

Rich