[engine_work] Project Sarty

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Too late matey. Photos coming, but I now have experienced top notch service from the excellent team at Emerald. I've even spoken to Dave Walker himself!

 

I am now around £700+ lighter in the wallet dept, as I also have a set of R1 throttle bodies, which are currently being mod'd by Pronta & I in the evenings to accept the GTi6 injectors, which means mod'ing the fuel rail. It's exciting stuff.

 

Next we're going to start measuring, cutting and welding to make a custom inlet tract, aiming for an overall - per cyinder - tract length of 300mm (trumpet face to head). The latter should bolster up yet again mid range grunt.

 

I've jumped the MS boat, but would recommend it (the whole process) to anyone providing they either build it themselves or spec the build for someone like MadProf AFTER they're digested everything MS, which is a lot of reading. But it is so worth it to educate you on engine management, which I believe is the whole concept behind MS.

Edited August 15, 2008 by DrSarty

[tom_m 0]

Too late matey. Photos coming, but I now have experienced top notch service from the excellent team at Emerald. I've even spoken to Dave Walker himself!

 

DW is a top bloke, mention you know Kate next time you speak to him and see his reaction.

[James_R 3]

I thought Carl had the funnier reaction

 

Good move Rich, emerald's good stuff and DW is a good mapper, going ITB's will add a whole new dimension of crazy to the engine, althoguh I'd like to have seen what the 6 inlet could muster

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Good move Rich, emerald's good stuff and DW is a good mapper, going ITB's will add a whole new dimension of crazy to the engine, althoguh I'd like to have seen what the 6 inlet could muster

 

Thanks James; I agree. Carl's mum who works there too is most professional. Imagine a mum you can talk ITBs with!

 

I'm sure the 6 inlet would've been good too. But the bodies came up, and the only thing I ever want to do with this engine again - other than thrash it - is a PeterT cam swap: my stage I going over to the exhaust and a stage II going onto the inlet. That'll be it (with a new map session), and then I'll just drive the bar steward until my hands bleed.

 

Pronta reckons the engine'll piss 220bhp like this; I fancy we'll be knocking on 230bhp with the final cam swap, but with so much broadly spread torque it'll be a neck snapping experience. ... ...

 

P.S. this means my mint '6 inlet is for sale at £55.

 

In fact I'm already planning a new project once this is done; an E30 (ie RWD) with a fettled Saab 9000 2.3 turbo lump. Standby standby for drift city.

Edited August 15, 2008 by DrSarty

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Here are some pics of the recent acquisitions, work and social activities.

 

Most of my R&R has been/is being spent with Mini Mi. He doesn't like cars at all!

We went to Pronta's other place of employment with the racing (Le Mans) Dodge Viper. Here are its brakes (OMFG) & wheels.

And the Yamaha R1 throttle bodies being mod'd by Pronta & the real guru, my lad. The '6 injectors are both wider & longer than the R1 standard jobbies, which means spacing the R1 fuel rail away from the TB's & grinding part of the castings down to accept the fatter injector.

& where it's all going.

[Batfink 201]

its going to go like the clappers!

[Bonzai 2]

and make a terrific racket

[cybernck 402 1 Cars]

did you ask for a 205GTIDrivers.com discount on the ECU?

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

did you ask for a 205GTIDrivers.com discount on the ECU?

 

Oh yes. 5% as standard.

 

 

Gonna start making the custom manifold in a few days; 40mm internal pipe dia to keep gas speeds up and 300mm overall length trumpet inlet to head face (as I think I've bored you with already) courtesy of advice from the most knowledgable Sandy309.

Edited August 17, 2008 by DrSarty

[tom_m 0]

Gonna start making the custom manifold in a few days; 40mm internal pipe dia to keep gas speeds up and 300mm overall length trumpet inlet to head face (as I think I've bored you with already) courtesy of advice from the most knowledgable Sandy309.

 

whats the difference (if any) between the port spacing and the body spacing? how are you planning to get round this rich? are you going to space the bodies to match the head, or have different length runners on the manifold?

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

whats the difference (if any) between the port spacing and the body spacing? how are you planning to get round this rich? are you going to space the bodies to match the head, or have different length runners on the manifold?

 

There is a spacing 'anomoly' and we're getting round it by identical lengths of runner, angled to make them fit. Hope that makes sense; basically 4 x lengths cut - the outer ones straight and the inner two cut at an angle, one side flipped and rejoined. The 'kink' takes up the extra length. They'll probably be cut to indentical lengths to start with, or 2mm shorter to then have the distance made up by weld/seam. Either way, we can do an accurate liquid volume check of all 4 runners to match them up.

Edited August 18, 2008 by DrSarty

[richsmells 2]

Either way, we can do an accurate liquid volume check of all 4 runners to match them up.

 

Damn clever idea!

[kyepan 291]

is it going to be ready for the weekend, judging by how quiet you're being ..... it could be possible.

Edited August 20, 2008 by kyepan

[Batfink 201]

Rich remind me to chat about inlet manifolds on the curry night as I fancy making my own too I have a complete experiment to do!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Technical discussion on Yamaha R1 (02-03) Throttle Bodies

 

OK then, the fun is starting, building the manifold to mate the R1 TBs to the Mi16 head & figuring out parts required, connections needed, problems that will be encountered and workable solutions.

 

THE REASON FOR TYPING THIS IS TWO FOLD:

1) I've researched using this forum and others, and read a great deal about carbs, TBs (car & bike varieties - particularly everything BUT R1s) and didn't quite get the specific answers needed

2) To combine everything about fitting TBs (especially R1s) onto Mi type heads

 

The current issues I've discussed with the following top people - ANTHONY, SANDY & TOM M - are as follows:

 

How to make the manifold, compared with the different approaches used on threads here - long, short or no silicon hosing?

What fuel pressure regulator to use if std fuel pressure (currently n/k) is too low/high? (BLUE)

Do we need the MAP sensor? (GREEN)

What length of inlet tracts to use (including use of trumpets / airbox / socks / cold air feed)?

Where to get vacuum (servo) take off from?

How to plumb in the R1 (and I believe R6) CV vacuum plungers/chokes)? (RED)

How to attach the Pug throttle cable and get full range use of both pedal & butterflies to make it easy to drive? (ORANGE)

 

 

Items shown using rings as coloured above, and hoping people will discuss on here to help me and others, including if possible REASONS why, ie the techy stuff. I'll write up tonight what I'm planning to do based on current advice. Always happy to change a plan based on sound advice, perhaps from someone with specific R1 TB experience.

Edited August 21, 2008 by DrSarty

[James_R 3]

I wouldn't bother running a MAP sensor on ITBs for starters

 

Fuel rpessure wise, if it's too low, either bigger injectors, or put a second reg in line on the return of the first to bump it up, or the vice method. If it's too high then either less injector duty or smaller injectors would be called of, by too high you mean over the pressure the fuel pump can survive for any amount of time?

[welshpug 1,657]

dunno if I missed it but what did the silver fuel rail come from? black one I recognise as a gti6 one.

 

if it came from a bike I'd give using it a go myself.

 

servo vacuum, if its a gti6 head I would use the pump on the end of the cam, less pipework

 

Silicon hosing I guess is used due to the simplicity of fitting, and that their predecessors - carbs - were mounted in the same way to easy vibration?

 

fuel pressure should be fairly easy to alter if you use the bosch/webber FPR's, popular mod is a VAG 4 bar item, from the VR6 engines.

[James_R 3]

servo vacuum, if its a gti6 head I would use the pump on the end of the cam, less pipework

 

 

It's an Mi head unless that's changed too suddenly

 

Would just drill and tap a take off from one port that's enough vacum unless you find out otherwise, certainly 3 engine's I've been involved with only had a single take off and were fine (including my own)

 

James

[welshpug 1,657]

ok, if its a 2.0 Mi16 head fit the Vacuum pump from an S16

[James_R 3]

 

It's a 1.9 Mi head, be worth reading the thread before posting so the info's actually applicable

[kyepan 291]

would advise against using the hoses as the step/s will cause vortecies where you want air flow to be smooth.. from what i've been told you want a straignt shot down into the ports from the tops of the trumpets, and if you go for a curve, the radius should be no more than the mi manifold.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

would advise against using the hoses as the step/s will cause vortecies where you want air flow to be smooth.. from what i've been told you want a straignt shot down into the ports from the tops of the trumpets, and if you go for a curve, the radius should be no more than the mi manifold.

 

This is a valid point, has been discussed in depth and may stimulate interesting coversation here.

 

I will also post some pics shortly of progress & answer the points I made on the subject of fitting the R1 ITBs. I will do this from Kandahar, where I'm travelling back to today. What a bank holiday eh!

 

So Justin and my good friends, the hoses are almost an unavoidable item. The only way to avoid using them is getting a custom (read: professional manifold) made up, by Sandy/Eeyore (Colin Satchell - the fabrication & suspension God), Bogg Bros or similar, at a cost of around £200.

 

The silicon hoses are actually (if kept short), identical to how the bike carbs & ITBs are fitted on the original bike. This means to me they ain't a bad thing. On a physical side, due to mine and most people's mismatch in port spacings to TB venturis, the silicon provides the degree of flexible angling needed to make them fit.

 

We have angled my runners, all slighty inward - outers in at a slight sharper angle (so therefore longer - more to follow on this) and even so the silicon is needed to take the angles back to straights for the TBs, and the silicon is excellent on an individual basis to 'correct' this.

 

There is actually only 10-15mm of silicon which is bare to the airflow, ie between the runners and the ITBs and therefore creating the steps you mention. BUT we feel these steps are quite beneficial, which is very likely against common thinking regarding making everything slick, smooth and shiny.

 

We may be wrong, but we feel the slightly decreasing inlet tract diameters, from flared filter and trumpet into 43mm TB (it says 40mm in the specs but at the inlet it's 43), then into a 41mm runner which meets with a 40mm inlet head port will naturally increase gas speeds - the laws of physics and all that - will is a good thing. Add to this a target overall tract length of 300mm as advised by the guru Sandy for my type of fast road/rally usage, and I think we're on the right tract...sorry, track.

 

The slight steps we have, from the use of the silicon joiners AND where the runners meet the head (we've left a slight 1mm bottom lip), will add some turbulence too to aid fuel homoginization (is that right Tom?). The lip is at the bottom to delay the gases slightly as they curve down to the valves, allowing the higher air to travel around the longer radius and 'catch up'. Again, we believe this is a good thing.

 

As for the runner lengths, we understand there are rumours about the effects on performance based on the positioning of the TBs along the tracts, ie nearer or further away from the head. We've pretty much gone for an almost maximum length runner with teenie weenie trumpets; BUT, the 2 inner trumpets will be slightly longer to make them match the overall lengths of the outer 2 runners. So we see that an overall tract length of 300mm can be equally be made up of:

 

+6mm flange

+113mm TB

+160mm runner

+21mm trumpet

=300mm

 

Just as it would if the runner were 20mm shorter and the trumper 20mm longer.

 

Add to this our suspicion that arguing the toss about a few mm in this regard is pointless (waits, dreading being humiliated ) and the fact that the world ain't perfect and there are manufacturing and airflow inconsitencies in the installation, a feww mm here and there will either balance these inconsistencies our, or I suppose amplifying them (but we doubt that).

 

So blurb over; pics to follow.

 

Comments & humiliating onslaught of correct reasoning please ladies & gents. No homos please.

Edited August 25, 2008 by DrSarty

[applemobile 0]

very interesting read and very informative

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

very interesting read and very informative

 

Thanks Apple.

 

I've just re-read my blurb above - which incidentally I thought would kick off some serious discussion but hasn't - and been giggling my tits off at some of my typing errors, such as 'the trumper'.

[Batfink 201]

interesting with the method of keeping overall inlet tract the same. Do you think thats more important than the throttlebody position along the runner??