[engine_work] Project Sarty

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Firstly I am 'a searcher', and as my new engine plan involves an S16 block, I can assure you all that I have waded through 8 pages of S16 related threads to gather general info that'll help my project.

 

Therefore IF and WHEN there is any repetition of answers, may I apologise in advance? The upside is, since I hope this will become a future "members' project" thread with photos of all stages of the build, then it will contain all of the answers for both an interesting read and for anyone else to follow.

 

Right, firstly my new engine plan is as per my signature. PLEASE DIGEST THIS FIRST and also the fact that as we stand, I don't have the XU11DA (ex 2.1 diesel turbo) crank that I require and encourage your assistance in finding one.

 

I am currently in the process of documenting the whole plan so I know exactly what parts I require (on top of what I already have), and asking billions of I hope non-bone questions to knowledgable people. Thus far this has included PeterT, Miles, SuperJosh and BlackMi16, and I hope will also encourage Maxi, Sandy, Revla, Huxley309, Pumaracing and others who have either built similar upped-displacement engines or are mechanically savvy enough to contribute.

 

I will always strive to NOT ask divvy questions, but the aim is to avoid by consultation any pitfalls; some of which may be apparent before I even ask the question, and respectfully request that anyone with a recommendation/fix simply suggests it, i.e. you will encounter 'X' and this means you need to do 'Y'.

 

So if I start with the S16 block and related bottom end items:

 

Here is my block, ex Monkey's car apparently, which had a damaged big end bearing, now along with the rest in the bin:

 

I've been looking forward to building a bottom end, now here's my chance. I will undoubtedly use the wrong terminology initially as I learn but I will try. My initial questions are:

 

1) Mos started a big debate over the 'safeness' of boring out to 88mm rather than 87mm, but there was no conclusion. BlackMi has suggested I might choose to stay at 87mm for less risk. Is it safe or not?

 

2) The S16 block appears to have its own thermostat housing, which the/my Mi16 head already has. So, which one is either blanked off or still plumbed in but minus a thermostat or something else altogether?

 

3) Can my S16 rods be checked by anyone (and how) for trueness?

 

4) The S16 engine mount looks different. Do I swap it for the one on my Mi alloy block (shortly to be listed as a nearly complete Mi engine and loom in the 'for sale' section) or use it as is?

 

5) Do I/should I have the block decked?

 

My future posts will not be this long; simply progress shots and explanations or questions.

 

Thanks for everyone's help and advice in advance.

 

DrS (Rich)

Edited April 22, 2007 by DrSarty

[Mikey S 29 1 Cars]

I've been looking forward to building a bottom end, now here's my chance. I will undoubtedly use the wrong terminology initially as I learn but I will try. My initial questions are:

 

1) Mos started a big debate over the 'safeness' of boring out to 88mm rather than 87mm, but there was no conclusion. BlackMi has suggested I might choose to stay at 87mm for less risk. Is it safe or not?

 

2) The S16 block appears to have its own thermostat housing, which the/my Mi16 head already has. So, which one is either blanked off or still plumbed in but minus a thermostat or something else altogether?

 

3) Can my S16 rods be checked by anyone (and how) for trueness?

 

4) The S16 engine mount looks different. Do I swap it for the one on my Mi alloy block (shortly to be listed as a nearly complete Mi engine and loom in the 'for sale' section) or use it as is?

 

My future posts will not be this long; simply progress shots and explanations or questions.

 

Thanks for everyone's help and advice in advance.

 

DrS (Rich)

 

1. i would personally stick to 87mm bore mate, a mm overbore will make the wall thickness pretty thin between the bores judging from your photo.

 

2. if the housing your talking about is the one in the bottom picture, its the water distribution block. use the s16 one.

 

3. any decent machine shop will be able to check the trueness of the rods. while there there get them shot peened to reduce stress.

 

4. im not sure tbh.

 

hope that helps

mike

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

2. if the housing your talking about is the one in the bottom picture, its the water distribution block. use the s16 one.

No and oops - that was divvy question no. 1 already (thanks Inferno ) the slightly corroded area in the second picture, not the fourth (I recognise the water distribution block which is plastic on my Mi alloy block) IS FOR THE WATER PUMP. Sorry.

 

hope that helps

It sure does - like the shot peen thingy too. What's the estimated cost of this true check and peen then?Cheers

 

Please also note added question 5 which you missed whilst replying Mr Pugger.

 

Extra photo showing S16 block's oil spray bars - nice.

S

Edited April 22, 2007 by DrSarty

[inferno 1]

the s16 engine mount will fit the car fine. ive used this to replace an early xu10 alloy mount (due to extra brackets ect on the alloy one). unsure if the mi16 mount will fit the xu10 block.

[smckeown 1]

you don't mention power target, driveability requirements or how the engine will be used. The answer to these question will help you get to the bottom of some of your questions, like block decking etc, as well as cam choice.

 

Also what induction will you be running ?

 

As i understand it, ever engine rebuild is different (unless your coping a known suitable spec) therefore you need to know what the end result is first before the design starts

 

Sean

[Mikey S 29 1 Cars]

It sure does - like the shot peen thingy too. What's the estimated cost of this true check and peen then?Cheers

 

Please also note added question 5 which you missed whilst replying Mr Pugger.

 

im unsure of cost tbh, maybe speak to qep?

 

as for block decking, what sort of compression ratio are you thinking of using? there is only so much you can take off a head. but if it is decked then you run the risk of having too much piston protrusion at tdc (top dead center). again, maybe speaking to qep with regards to your ideal comp ratio and they will be able to advise more.

 

cheers

Edited April 22, 2007 by pugger

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

You shall just use the S16 enginemounts, the alloy mounts from XU9 won't fit.

 

About the block decking, just deck it like 0.1mm so it's clean and nice before the 3layer steel headgasket goes on.

 

Easiest solution to get the compression right is just to order S16 wiseco pistons, but just tell them to change the pin-height to suit.

 

About the crank, just find a car in the scrappy with those engines and get the engine, or maybe some breakers even have a bare engineblock with crank, just search around

 

Will be interesting to se how this project proceeds, me like custom builds

[James_R 3]

1) Mos started a big debate over the 'safeness' of boring out to 88mm rather than 87mm, but there was no conclusion. BlackMi has suggested I might choose to stay at 87mm for less risk. Is it safe or not?

 

Your choice really, also 87mm means you can use a std headgasket (GTI-6 items are MLS anyways) and saves you having to use a special on.

 

2) The S16 block appears to have its own thermostat housing, which the/my Mi16 head already has. So, which one is either blanked off or still plumbed in but minus a thermostat or something else altogether?

 

Using the Mi thermostat housing if you're running an Mi head, as the vac pump set up on the s16 needs an oil drain hole on it, or drill the Mi head for the return.

 

3) Can my S16 rods be checked by anyone (and how) for trueness?

 

4) The S16 engine mount looks different. Do I swap it for the one on my Mi alloy block (shortly to be listed as a nearly complete Mi engine and loom in the 'for sale' section) or use it as is?

 

The iron s16 mount fits, but a lighter alternative is the mount from the 2L XM or 605 engine's coupled to a Mi "elbow" this fits the s16 with a small modification and then hack/cut/grind off the estra brackets on it. We tested this on Anthony's hybrid engine, also allows the engine to be moved up or down a little.

 

5) Do I/should I have the block decked?

 

I have one small question, if you're intending to use a very long stroke crank (more than 88mm) then you'll need short rods to stop the pistons protuding, or pistons with gudgeon pins closer to the crown, think you'll need to sit down and work out what you've got/going to get then decide on what deck height to run.

 

 

 

Looks like a good project you've got going, I ran a 86x88s16 bottom end on a Mi head last year and due to the mega compression (240psi cold comp test) ate a few headgaskets, also I'm sure it was running lean and the ign set up wasn't right on 1.9 2row Mi management. But it also depends on cams, etc.. just getting the right mix.

 

Since then I went back to a standard Mi with a baffled sump set up, and now back to a std 8v right now, it works and I can't kill it which is the main thing I enjoy when out on track, that and it's a £10 engine, so I don't worry about it at all.

 

So really what I'm waffling on about is, if you can build an engine you don't mind being without or building a second time have fun, if you can't then maybe rethink what is a good plan.

[petert 583]

Don't deck until the block has been bored and you've done a trial assembly with new pistons. Only then will you be able to measure accurately what's required. Yes, that means two (or more) trips to the engine reco. place, but it's the only way to it properly. Deck the block to suit the pistons, not the other way around.

 

If you're using an 88mm crank then you'll only need to take a minute skim off anyway.

 

The thermostat is in the same place as a 1.9L.

 

You have to use the S16 water distribution block as the mounting hole spacing/size is different.

 

Any water pump will fit.

 

You have to use S16 top engine mount, but you can cut most of the ancilliary bracket away if you don't need power steering. You'll be amazed how much weight can be saved. (need a pic.?)

 

Any rear engine mount will fit.

 

If it were mine, I'd only do 86.5 x 88, just to make head gasket choice easy.

Edited April 22, 2007 by petert

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

you don't mention power target, driveability requirements or how the engine will be used. The answer to these question will help you get to the bottom of some of your questions, like block decking etc, as well as cam choice.

 

Also what induction will you be running ?

 

As i understand it, ever engine rebuild is different (unless your coping a known suitable spec) therefore you need to know what the end result is first before the design starts

 

Hi Sean,

 

I didn't state, but my goal has always been a tractable and grunty road car which can be used on some of the tamer rallying scene like 12 car rallies and scatters etc, where as with my Mi16 engine as was, I can still get away with entry. This'll still look like one and most importantly abide by the rules of max 1xthrottle butterfly per pair of cylinders. It does state a complete GTi6 inlet (air & fuelling system) in my signature, but it didn't mention that the cam is already PeterT's stage 1 road.

 

I love the extra life the Mi has, particularly that mine had after 5k with PeterT's very successful mods and the Gardias head, where it quite simply got lairy. As I'm older and not a track person, I believe I would prefer the performance (read: torque) to be delivered with less drama. I simply cannot see that these components as they stand, whilst relatively simple and 'off the shelf' - which was another budget orientated goal of mine - if set up corretly, won't deliver spades of torque in a very smooth fashion.

 

I have no power goal(s). That might seem odd but again, as I've learnt stuff here on the forum I've chosen to have no interest in 'silly' horse power targets, and for that matter rolling road results UNLESS it's part of a full and professional dyno style mapping session where the delivery of torque can be tailored.

Edited April 23, 2007 by DrSarty

[petert 583]

Headbolts:

As you're planning to use a 1.9L head on a 2L block there is a small drama around the corner for you. You will need:

 

9 off XU10J4 head bolts

1 off XUD9TE head bolt, with the head turned down to 22mm

 

I have (new) spare modified XUD head bolts if you need just one.

 

There may be another solution that I'm not aware of.

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

1) Mos started a big debate over the 'safeness' of boring out to 88mm rather than 87mm, but there was no conclusion. BlackMi has suggested I might choose to stay at 87mm for less risk. Is it safe or not?

 

2) The S16 block appears to have its own thermostat housing, which the/my Mi16 head already has. So, which one is either blanked off or still plumbed in but minus a thermostat or something else altogether?

 

3) Can my S16 rods be checked by anyone (and how) for trueness?

 

4) The S16 engine mount looks different. Do I swap it for the one on my Mi alloy block (shortly to be listed as a nearly complete Mi engine and loom in the 'for sale' section) or use it as is?

 

5) Do I/should I have the block decked?

 

My future posts will not be this long; simply progress shots and explanations or questions.

 

Thanks for everyone's help and advice in advance.

 

DrS (Rich)

 

 

 

Right here we go, these are my answers from someone who has actually used one of these engines and has thrashed the s*it out of it.

 

First of all let me point something out, I ran a large CR and showed 270-280PSI across the board after 1000miles and I never had a head gaskett fail, I think there was something wrong with the engine mentioned in one of the replies...dont you?

 

To answer your questions:

 

1. Stay to 87mm, you obviously want as much cc as poss but whats the point in potentially risking block failure by gaining one extra mm. I would much rather have the piece of mind knowing the unit will be safe and dare I say it, RELIABLE.

 

2. The thermostat housing for an s16 is on the side of the head, the same position as an alloy mi16. You are clearly getting confused with the s16 distibution unit on the back of the block. This is a much better item than the plastic 1900 mi one and should be used.

 

3. Any machine shop should be able to do this, might be worth a trip to QEP anyway as they have built several of these engines know and are the ones with FIRST HAND experience.

 

4. Use the s16 mount.

 

5. Having the block decked will take any imperfections out but at the same time is bringing the compression ratio up. Depending which pistons you are using, it will depend on your tollerances ie:piston to valve clearence. You really need to get down to QEP and have a good chat to Matt or Nick.

 

Please remember, unlike most of the idiots on the forum (and you would be really suprised who hasnt actually got a clue and has a second person behind them!) my post is based on MY OWN EXPERIENCE.

 

You could always buy my engine ????

 

Maxi

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

Headbolts:

As you're planning to use a 1.9L head on a 2L block there is a small drama around the corner for you. You will need:

 

9 off XU10J4 head bolts

1 off XUD9TE head bolt, with the head turned down to 22mm

 

I have (new) spare modified XUD head bolts if you need just one.

 

There may be another solution that I'm not aware of.

 

Regarding the headbolts you can also use 10 off the XUD9TE (I used XU10J2TE but think they're the same thing). Turned down all the heads in a lathe so they would fit the head.

 

Used 9 Mi16 headbolt washers, and 1 S16 headboltwasher (which is much thinner than the Mi16 ones). The S16 washer is going on the bolt above the waterpump.

 

Maxi: Any reson for you running such high CR as that? It might really loose power if you can't up the ignition timing properly. I might be on the low side on my engine at 11.6:1 with lairier camshafts than you got, but lord it pulls

Edited April 23, 2007 by B1ack_Mi16

[Rob Thomson 6]

This'll still look like one and most importantly abide by the rules of max 1xthrottle butterfly per pair of cylinders.

The rules for road rallying say, "retain the standard injection system including inlet manifold" or something like that. A GTi6 manifold etc would be fine, but there's nothing in the regs about one throttle per pair of cylinders...

 

Also, if you're only doing 12 cars and scatters I think you can run what the hell you like. You could turn up in a Group B Quattro and they'd have to let you run. I could be wrong about that, I haven't done a 12-car for years...

 

PS. Sorry, haven't got around to posting injectors. Promise I'll do it tomorrow...

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Just an update, no pics I'm afraid yet because basically it's involved a little bit more consulting and shopping. All in all it's going quite nicely, with no major change of plan EXCEPT I'm having someone assemble the engine in its basic state for me.

 

I know I know, I said I wanted to do it myself, but I'll be in Afghanistan soon and I can give someone 6 months to do it slow time whilst I'm away. Along with this I'll have peace of mind regarding assembly and a guarantee of sorts based on the guy's reputation.

 

With several people's guidance, for which I'm eternally grateful, I am assembling the following items:

 

S16 2.0L iron block **HAVE courtesy of Kyunis £50** Extra bits being sold to recoup some of that

 

2.1 TD Diesel Crank **COLLECTING SOON courtesy of eGay and an eagle-eyed Kyunis £50

 

Wiseco 87mm Forged pistons with mod'd pin height ORDERED through trade friend at friend pricing £Not as much as you'd think

 

S16 rods, shot peened **HAVE came with block £00

 

Sump spacer **COMING IN POST P&P only - thanks Felix 2566

 

Oil pump (and 2nd, spare spacer) **NEARLY HAVE from Richie-Van-GTi £10 BUT it's from an iron block turbo diesel so we're unsure of its compatibility

 

Oil sump **FEELERS OUT May be getting baffled GTi6 sump from 16v205 who just helped Skeggyrik with one - 16v205 said he had a couple....be lucky Sarty

 

GTi6 Inlet Complete **COLLECTING SOON courtesy of James R £60

 

Aftermarket management **POSSIBLE MEGASQUIRT 2nd HAND found just needing loom. May well include EDIS and trigger wheel and pickup. Circa £250

 

Extended oil pickup and one off turned down XUD9TE head bolt **Ex PeterT £TBA

 

This shows efforts made/help supplied and parts cost involved. Approx total bill £450 plus pistons. With test assembly to ensure no piston crown to valve clash and final engine build and timing it's all gonna come in for quite a bit under £1500, which I'm quite pleased with.

 

PeterT's calculated a CR of between 11.5-11.7 : 1 which is very healthy and the pistons being flush with the deck at TDC. With the custom valve pockets and the correct cam timing from his stage 1 cam, we should be clear of any valve contact, but of course that will all be tested with a lightly sprung head test fit.

 

If I had the cash, I would've bought Kate's vernier pullies to really fine tune this set-up, but for the time being I'm staying with practical calculations on the engine builder's bench and offset woodruff keys again, perhaps retaining the ones I already have. Maybe I'll be lucky yet again

 

The non-listed expenses are GTi6 head gasket, some new hoses ex Miles and perhaps an EDIS from a Ford on a scrappy's. I need to have Anthony rebuild my 309GTi rear beam whilst I'm being shot at and bombed which will probably mean a total expenditure of £1500-1700.

 

Hope this is of interest and keeps you abreast of my plans. Again, all help, advice and charity accepted in buckets.

[John_B 11]

You've done well to get all that for £1500-£1700. Nice one.

[James_R 3]

I've got a few oil pump extensions already tig'd on to pump bodies if you want rich, let me know I'm not using mine now.

[Baz 421]

Excellent Rich, keenly keeping an eye on the progress!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I've got a few oil pump extensions already tig'd on to pump bodies if you want rich, let me know I'm not using mine now.

GROOVY! Nice one James and thanks yet again.

 

That means I don't need PeterT's, which means less welding and packing for him and I can pick it up at the meet Sunday to go with my S16 oil pump from the man, the legend that is......

 

Anthony

 

"Wicked man. Rinsing out to the ladies dancing on the speakers" (sorry, listening to AWOL Jungle)

 

Thanks for your support Baz. I'm still hunting for a used GTi6 head gasket for my test assembly BTW.

 

Top crowd, see you Sunday.

[Richie-Van-GTi 71 2 Cars]

Thanks for your support Baz. I'm still hunting for a used GTi6 head gasket for my test assembly BTW.

 

Top crowd, see you Sunday.

 

 

something I also need to do, silly me binned mine when I took the head off

Watching your thread with interest BTW

get my bodies in the morning as well, justneed to raise the MS funds and but a few gaskets for re assembly

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Thanks to you too R-V-Gti. We will be speaking soon ref your recent PM.

 

DrS

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Update and question.

 

I'm gonna transfer the lower engine mount bracket from my alloy Mi block, which includes a Pugspares solid bottom mount (£50 ) over to my iron block. But I'm gonna leave the intermediate bearing on there for Chris G who bought my engine. Not fair to rob it blind now:blush: , but I;'m sure he'll understand the solid bush thingy.

 

I've got my GTi6 baffled sump coming from 16v205 and have now secured an S16 oil pump from Anthony (nice one mate - shame you left it at work ) and an extended pickup and bits from my mate James R. I'm a little confused on connecting up the oil pump sprocket and chain to the crank, which is a diesel crank, but the Haynes manual seems to show a gear that slides on to the crank and is locked with a woodruff key. I'm also concerned I have the correct number of links in the chain and the right number of teeth on both gears. Novice in this regard I'm afraid.

 

And also, re: head bolts. I'm still confuzzled though sorry.

 

If I follow PeterT's route of:

 

9 x XU10J4 headbolts (the 2.0 iron block bolts)

 

plus

 

1 x XUD9TE headbolt (head turned down to 22mm to make it fit in my Mi head recess)

 

Then what spacers if any does it mean I need? 10off Mi ones as standard? None? 10off S16 spacers or 1off S16 and 9off Mi? Or something completely different?

 

 

Gotta get this right.

 

Rich

 

P.S. My copper gasket had breached on cylinder 4 (cam pulley end) quite spectacularly.

 

[petert 583]

All you'll need is the normal XU10 washers, which are approx. 3mm thick for the nine bolts. I'll double check for the tenth.

 

It looks like you had insufficient liner protrusion. Once the water gets under theres no stopping it.

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

All you'll need is the normal XU10 washers, which are approx. 3mm thick for the nine bolts. I'll double check for the tenth.

 

I definately used S16 washer on the XUD9TE bolt over the waterpump, so then it's 10 S16 washer with this setup.

[nunoserrano 0]

thats right mate use 9 Mi16v washers/spacers and one S16 washer on 10 xud9 head bolts