309 Wishbones And Rear Beam

[mos 1]

hi,

 

i know there is reams of info on 309 wishbones and rear beams etc

but the question i have doesnt really seem to ever have been directly tackled.

is it worth the effort for a road car?

the reason i ask is one of my 205's has failed the mot on the ball joints and for the tiny difference in price i am thinking of buying 309 wishbones rather than 205 ones

as it really only used on roads is it worth it?

if i do get 309 wishbones is it wise to fit them without the 309 rear beam or front anti roll bar?

an i fit the genuine peugeot 205 wishbone bushes to pattern 309 wishbones?

i take it tracking toe would remain the same as the 205 wishbone settings.

 

thanks

 

mark

[j_turnell 137 3 Cars]

If you fit the 309 wishbones you will need the driveshafts aswell. Also need new track rod ends or if good your tracking adjusted as it will toe out like crazy otherwise. Front anti role bar not needed, a lot of people have found it to create understeer but down to the individual.

 

Just using the front setup is fine and still works well, better turn in more grip on the bends etc. Ive got the full setup on my road car and find it awesome and would deffinetly reccomend it.

 

You can use genuine 205 bushes and get them pressed into the 309 arms afaik they are the same.

 

I have my tracking set to neutral or slightly toe out

[Ahl 4]

If you fit the 309 wishbones you will need the driveshafts aswell. Also need new track rod ends or if good your tracking adjusted as it will toe out like crazy otherwise. Front anti role bar not needed, a lot of people have found it to create understeer but down to the individual.

 

Just using the front setup is fine and still works well, better turn in more grip on the bends etc. Ive got the full setup on my road car and find it awesome and would deffinetly reccomend it.

 

You can use genuine 205 bushes and get them pressed into the 309 arms afaik they are the same.

 

I have my tracking set to neutral or slightly toe out

I've got the 309 wishbones (and driveshafts) on the front of my car, tracking set to neutral.

J_Turnell has it spot on, the turn in and grip is much improved, I like it a lot. The tyre wear is also better now - before the outsides of the tyres used to wear badly with hard cornering.

 

My only complaint (more my friends complaints) is that it changes the steering a little. It feels lighter just driving around, but heavier when in a bend-just not quite as *sweet* as before.

Like I say, it doesn't bother me though. Definitely down to personal preference.

[veloce200 3]

I've got the 309 wishbones (and driveshafts) on the front of my car, tracking set to neutral.

J_Turnell has it spot on, the turn in and grip is much improved, I like it a lot. The tyre wear is also better now - before the outsides of the tyres used to wear badly with hard cornering.

 

My only complaint (more my friends complaints) is that it changes the steering a little. It feels lighter just driving around, but heavier when in a bend-just not quite as *sweet* as before.

Like I say, it doesn't bother me though. Definitely down to personal preference.

 

You don't have to use the 309 shafts - been running mine for 2 years without now. Have to say I don't dump the clutch at junctions though. Forget the 309 beam unless you increase the front track even further. Although I wouldn't do any of it without uprated rear beam mounts - be well twitchy otherwise.

[inferno 1]

You don't have to use the 309 shafts - been running mine for 2 years without now. Have to say I don't dump the clutch at junctions though.

 

really?! intresting...

[Baz 421]

Yes, again the 2 different schools of thought on the shaft issue, it seems the 205 ones are fine in alot of cases if you generally just use the car as a road car, and not the type of driver that has a little 'mad moment' or similar!

I would feel safer using a car that gets driven hard/track etc with the 309 shafts to say the least, at least the NS shaft anyway. There's definitely some scary stories to back up using 309 shafts with the arms anyway!

 

As for the 309 beam, again there's lots of differing opinions, the whole 309 setup makes the car feel more stable, well planted at speed, it will let go and give LOOS, but at a higher speed. Lots of the guys i know that compete or have done in 205s, particularly rallying, are completely opposed to them, as they like the twitchiness of the rear, the point and squirt attitude, stepping out when provoked easily. Remeber it isn't just the width of the rear, it's the larger diameter ARB and TB's that change with a 309 beam.

[pdd144c 0]

You don't have to use the 309 shafts - been running mine for 2 years without now. Have to say I don't dump the clutch at junctions though. Forget the 309 beam unless you increase the front track even further. Although I wouldn't do any of it without uprated rear beam mounts - be well twitchy otherwise.

 

As I have been saying for ages Julian!

 

Disagree completely with what you have said Baz, nearly all of the cars I know with 309 arms and 205 shafts are race cars, and NONE have had problems. It seems to be one of these forum 'rules' that you have to fit the 309 shafts, really makes no sense...

[Alastairh 47]

James hit the nail on the head and its one of the best thigns i've done to my car, just make sure your tracking is 100%.

 

I've temparaliy got a 205 shaft on my passenger side (while ECP sort there lives out) and its not a dud shaft but i can get it to knock on fast left hand corners. Maybe Mi owners wouldn't get this

 

And tbh Anthony has had similar reviews aswell, who plays around with far too many 205s

 

After all if, Peugeot 15 years ago designed it for a 309 and realised the shafts needed to be longer for a reason

 

Alastair

Edited April 19, 2007 by Alastairh

[VisaGTi16v 1]

I fitted the 309 arms to my Visa leaving its 1.6 driveshafts in place (as I didnt even think about the length, this is a few year back!) and the OS one just vibrated like mad above 40 and the car was undriveable, it was all in their correctly as I had my local rally prep garage check it over. Swapped back to the shorter 1.6 arms and it was fine so I could only put it down to the length. The 1.9 8v shafts are no longer than the 1.6 8v ones are they?

[tom_m 0]

You don't have to use the 309 shafts - been running mine for 2 years without now. Have to say I don't dump the clutch at junctions though.

 

 

As I have been saying for ages Julian!

 

Disagree completely with what you have said Baz, nearly all of the cars I know with 309 arms and 205 shafts are race cars, and NONE have had problems. It seems to be one of these forum 'rules' that you have to fit the 309 shafts, really makes no sense...

 

as have i, and I always get shouted down too.

 

my car ran fine for a year with 205 shafts and 309 wishbones, and will be doing so again soon.

[jackherer 543]

It seems to be one of these forum 'rules' that you have to fit the 309 shafts, really makes no sense...

 

Years ago AndyY posted that he had a 205 shaft pop out when he ran it with a 309 wishbone. That is where it all came from I reckon. As several people have managed to run this combination without problems I think we can discount AndyY's experience as a one off or mistake.

[mos 1]

i had initially forgotten about the 309 shafts

but based on what people have said i think i will give the 309 wishbones ago, particularly as i can fit the genuine 205 bush kit to them

 

do you think i will get away with using ecp or gsf wishbones, are the ball joints any good, i think i remember people having trouble with the ball joints as well as the bushes,

obviously i will use peugeot bushes so the crap bushes should not be an issue.

 

thanks

 

mark

[niklas 1]

All kinds of knocking, vibration etc is definitely caused by wear and not the rather small increase in track.

[Garry 1]

I personally like the 309 beam. I ran the car with a 309 front set up and 205 rear and found the car quite scary, the front would grip like mad the rear wanting to step out and slide. Now, if you are a skilled driver it can very advantagous, I didn't like it.

The 309 beam calms it down again giving the car a bit more stability, it will still move around, just a little more controlled / stable.

[Alastairh 47]

do you think i will get away with using ecp or gsf wishbones, are the ball joints any good, i think i remember people having trouble with the ball joints as well as the bushes,

 

I've done 5k on my ECP wishbones and no prob soo far. Keep the recipt as they come with 12 months garantee, and also when you get them inspect them with a fine tooth combe. Maybe im unlucky with my local branch but me and my mates have a few problems with them but there cheap

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

I don't think all shafts are exactly the same, some might have slightly more plunge between makes.

 

In my experience running the 309 wishbones I found the longer shaft is fine running a 205gti one as it's bolted in at the engine mount and won't pull out.

 

However on the other side it pulled out on lock and starts dropping oil (short one). It's physically long enough IMO but if you have particularly tight rubber boots it can pull out of the gearbox (you can push it back in by hand but it springs back out slightly pulled by the boots). It did this just manouvering in the garage so I fitted a 309 shaft.

 

However you can't run 309 shafts with 205 wishbones as you'll get mega vibration as the shaft locks up in the cup on hard cornering as it compressed too much But I can't see how you'd get vibration running 205 shafts with 309 wishbones; if the shaft pulled out you'll just get no drive but it's not that much of a difference to do this.

[Anthony 1,003]

As CW said, it seems to be a tolerance issue between different cars/shafts as to whether 205 'shafts on 309 wishbones gives problems or not.

 

I have successfully used 205 'shafts myself before now but given that others have had problems, why take the risk? Unless you've brand new 'shafts on the car already, you could probably sell the 1.9 shafts for about what 309 ones would cost second hand.

 

As for the whole 309 wishbones/beam combo, I like it and it suits my driving style well - you get better turn-in, more grip, more planted (although still steerable on the throttle) and I find that my tyres wear far more evenly. Ideal for a road and occasional track car really. It's also considerably cheaper than the alternatives.

[Ruskyruss 0]

Reckon its just different tolerances from different manufacturers as you say, recently stripped a 309 gti which definatly had 205 1.9 shafts on it that ran fine, surprised me though!

[taylorspug 7]

Ive had a few N/S shafts come up at wildly different lengths in the last few months, all were 205 items, and the shortest would create a bad knocking/vibration when accelerating in a straight line, even though it was brand new. The manufacturer of these shafts is now not recommending them for lowered 205s, due to them being slightly too short. I think Maxi had similar issues with N/S shafts for a few months on the SLA. So id say alot of it is just different manufacturers making the shafts to slightly different lengths.

[205mattgti 0]

i am now running 309 gti rear beam and lower arms with 309 gti driveshaft.

 

i have to say the whole car has become a lot more stable and it handles so much better.

[Tom_Fowler 0]

I don't believe that 309 shafts are required with 309 wishbones I have run up to -1.5 degrees of static camber using adjustable wishbones and standard 205 shafts without any problems on a rally car. I think that the only time you could have an issue is close to full lock and trying to put a lot of torque through the shafts at the same time which is not a good idea with any shaft or wishbone combination. The problem of driveshaft noise during hard cornering is normally as a result of the engine and gearbox moving across the engine bay due to lateral G and pulling the shaft joints with it. The lateral movement of the engine can be reduced by fitting an extra block into the top engine mount between the shell cup and the aluminium engine mounting bracket. Increasing the stiffnes of all engine mounting materials will also help but is not always a good idea on a road car as vibration will increased.

[Ahl 4]

or you could just fit 309 shafts and be content that you will never have a problem?

[Longfield 0]

as we're on the subject of front wishbones.... why do track people use the 309 wishbones rather than rose jointed 205 wishbones which would then allow them to play with both camber and castor? Is it because 1.5 neg camber is all that's needed and the 309 wishbones do that at a lower price? Is it because regulations for their series don't allow rose jointed 205 wishbones? Or some other reason??

[boombang 2]

How much do rose jointed 205 wishbones cost?

[Doof 11]

i would think its purely down to cost. Aren't rose jointed wishbones about £500 or something?