Suspension Advice

[kate205gti 4]

hiya Im after some advice on suspension set up again please

 

at the moment im running bilstein pugsport coilovers with gravel spec springs (2 1/4 inch diam) and a quaife ATB, I was running eccentric mounts but didnt get on with these at all regardless of the setting so i swapped back to standard top mounts with group n rubbers for this weekend and the handling is now 200% better

 

i love the feel of the car now - hes very forgiving and goes where you point him most of the time, have just done a full day at donington "giving it beans" and stood up very well

 

only two issues which may/may not be related?

 

first issue is it seems to "scrabble" for grip round tight corners, although it never looses traction and pulls round fine - it did do this last year at castle combe when a torsion bar bolt came out the beam(!) and he was cocking a front leg so will check this out but hes keeping all 4 wheels on the floor so i dont think its this again (beam is rebuilt 309 jobby)

 

main issue is he seems a bit "soft" on the front - a couple of people have commented on it including the instructor who came in the car with me at donington. I did have a bit of an off where i clipped a kerb and hit the litter and he said that this was probably due to the back end being so light that with the softer suspension up front it just bounced out? I do trust it but obviously anything to keep me more planted without losing the feel of it ive got now would be good

 

so what would a good next step to getting it stuck to the road without losing the chuckability? any suggestions appreciated

[Jonmurgie 2]

The thing is those Billies up front aren't adjustable so you jsut get given the spec/rate that PugSport and Bilstein decided were OK... TBH other than going for stiffer from springs your a bit stuck...

 

However, in my experience my 205 was TRANSFORMED by fitting the AST fully adjustable kit... I thought the billies were awesome until I had the AST's so don't just assume they are the be all and end all cause PugSport do them etc. If it were me, I'd basically flog the Billies on and get some AST's (around £500/600 I think).

 

Drop me a PM if you want some contact details to get some prices on the AST's etc.

[Anthony 1,003]

I'd personally be very wary of stiffening up the front of the car any further, as all I think that you'll achieve is to make it less useable as a road car which is what is it is first and foremost - the suspension is already stiff enough that its struggling to keep the tyres in contact with the tarmac on rutted and bumpy roads, and stiffer springs will only make that worse.

 

Driving the car at Donington I thought that it was beautifully balanced and hugely impressed me with it current setup and I don't think that you'll make it hugely better without throwing a fair amount of money at it. Better dampers might help as Jon's experience above, but the Group N Billies are pretty good already and certainly not the weakest link. By stiffening the front without changing the rear you're just going to make it understeer more on the limit in my opinion - think Doug's 309 at Combe last year and you'll get the idea.

 

From what you described to me I think it was just a case of hitting the curb in such a way that it unsettled the car - certainly the curb you hit was fairly high and had a rut that would throw the car off line if you caught the wheel in it.

 

In honesty I'd leave the setup as it is as - for my driving style atleast - it worked very well indeed and is a pretty good compromise between road and track use, and certainly I'll admit when I was driving I was the limiting factor in going faster rather than the car. I'd personally do a few more trackdays this year and see how you feel then after honing your skills a bit more and learning the cars behavour on the limit, rather than considering a knee-jerk change.

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

There is a difference between Pugsport ( a company) and Peugeot Sport Group N or A (ex-Coventry or Special Tuning UK) , as well as 205 Challenge Spec (AB Motorsport as was), so not 100% sure which you are running. I presume Gravel springs were added as a compromise for the road. These springs are usually run with the dampers set pretty high so having the front low for track use may mean the springs are already under quite a bit of load and hence a tad bouncy.

 

As Anthony says, I would just stick with it and see what happens. Did the instructor comment on your driving style at all? Perhaps with that set up you may need to enter corners differently, i.e pre loading the suspension before you turn to avoid the bounce. This will also help you drive in a more progressive manner and ultimately faster. A stiff car means you can just chuck it into a corner but you can lose momentum and isa sure fire way to cook your tyres early.

[James_R 3]

Having driven the car agressively enough to have the oil pressure swaying about like a alcoholic at a beer festival, all I can comment on the car is awesome bit of kit, well done to Kate and Anthony for building a weapon like this. and Dave walker for the mapping, really good power delivery, doesn't really come on cam as such, just a strong linear delivery up to 7.5krpm

 

As for the sus on the car, as I said at the time, front damping is lacking, and the scrabbling for grip I blame on the mincey ATB in the car but may also be that the car needs softer front springs, having ragged tom_m's on fresh billi coilovers and 180lbs springs I'd say look to do that, or just get some billi sprintline shocks and custom wound 180lbs springs.

 

Coilovers are all well and good, but if you're adjusting the ride height on the car after it's set and not corner weighting the car, they're just more adjustment to go wrong. not to mention corrosion ceased spring pans etc..

 

Also noticed that the PTS bodies dont' go that low, they're or rallying afterall, not circuit so are meant for a higher ride height, the dampers run otu of travel on them when they're set fairly low.

[Batfink 201]

simple solution is you need a combination of stiffer main spring and a softer tender spring.

[Craigb 2]

As for the sus on the car, as I said at the time, front damping is lacking, and the scrabbling for grip I blame on the mincey ATB in the car but may also be that the car needs softer front springs, having ragged tom_m's on fresh billi coilovers and 180lbs springs I'd say look to do that, or just get some billi sprintline shocks and custom wound 180lbs springs.

 

If Kate is running Genuine PTS gravel springs then the rating is already 185 Lb.

[Batfink 201]

thats not a lot really for track use. i'm sure my brothers 205 Rallye runs 220lb on the front

[James_R 3]

Front spring rate really depends on the rear beam you run, if the fronts too stiff you'll just get understeer. I'm going ot be running 275lbs fronts, but I have a 24mm rear beam to go on.

[Craigb 2]

thats not a lot really for track use. i'm sure my brothers 205 Rallye runs 220lb on the front

 

Absolutely agree with you , when i last stripped my front springs , i compared them to the PTS tarmac spring (225Lb) and it would appear that mine which are not PTS springs are rated at about 240Lb .

 

I am currently swapping them to the gravel set up for some testing to get back the lost front end grip .

 

Maybe a progressive spring is what you are looking for Kate , or maybe just a set of PTS tarmacs just for the track days , I know i don't really like driving mine around town because it bumps everywhere, and the speed humps become a little tedious .

Edited March 5, 2007 by Craigb

[Rippthrough 98]

Going stiffer with the springs might well make the front worse if it's a damping issue.

[tom_m 0]

considering the length of time the dampers have been on the car its possible they have lost there effectiveness and are due for replacement/rebuild, springing in my eyes is secondary to how effective your dampers are.

stiffer springs on under performing dampers isn't going to improve the handling any.

 

edit: beaten to it by ripp!

Edited March 5, 2007 by tom_m

[Rippthrough 98]

Are the dampers rebuildable? Some top quality fresh oil and a gas recharge can work wonders.

[smckeown 1]

sounds like the dampers need a rebuild and springs too soft. ALso are you using too much lock to induce this ?

 

Also for more track work stiffer rear is worth looking at

[taylorspug 7]

Id try rebuilding the dampers as already mentioned, they could be knackered and you wouldnt know! Try that and see what it feels like first, plus get the car cornerweighted at the same time. Failing that, id maybe try a stiffer rear ARB. It sounds to me like the like the scrabbling for grip around tight corners is a soft rear end allowing the inside front wheel to unload (in fact looking at your avatar pic would seem to support this). Its worth remembering that as soon as this happens with an ATB, it stops transmitting power, so getting both front wheels planted is crucial.

 

If you are happy with the cars balance (and it seems from yours and others comments that it is pretty good), then dont start messing with spring rates, it will lead you down a very long and misleading garden path. Plus the current spring rates you are running id say would be about right for road tyres.

 

Main thing is to try things one at a time, so you actually know what is making the difference. Far too many people bolt half a dozen bits on before a trackday, it makes the car undriveable, they then spend six months working backwards to find what was causing the problem!

 

Also from looking at your setup id say that if you go any stiffer, its likely to make the car a pig on anything other than the smoothest roads, although im not sure how much road mileage the car gets and consequently how much this matters!

 

Interesting you found the eccentric top mounts loads worse, ive held the opinion for a while now that extremes of negative camber on 205s using road tyres does not suit them.

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

Describing the problem as "scrabbling" would suggest to me you wouldn't want it any stiffer. Mine runs old Jamex springs which aren't that stiff but it seems to work fine.

 

As for camber, I've taken my 309 arms off and gone back to 205 arms mainly because the car felt unstable unless it was on track and tyre wear could be said to be worse (it just scrubs the inside of the outer wheel).

[Alastairh 47]

Chris how do you find the tyre ware for fast driving on road tyres on the 205 stuff?

 

Mine use to eat the outer edge no matter how many times i had my tracking checked (205 stuff)

 

Alastair

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

Chris how do you find the tyre ware for fast driving on road tyres on the 205 stuff?

 

Mine use to eat the outer edge no matter how many times i had my tracking checked (205 stuff)

 

Alastair

 

This seems to be the dilemma IMO; adding 309 'bones helps neaten up the wear rate but I found it very nervous driving it on the road and was diabolical driving on the motorway if there were lorry "tramlines". On track it was more stable due to the track being smoother and the outer tyre did wear better (though it still feathered the outside edge quite a bit) BUT I found that the inside tyre of the other side (usually the drivers side tyre) gets scrubbed really badly, so much so that it got to the wires at Cadwell with plenty of tread left across the rest of the tyre

 

I think extra castor is what's required so that the static camber isn't loads but the dynamic camber change is better (negative on the outside wheel and a touch positive on the inside wheel). I tracked my ZM Coupe at Donington last year and the tyre wear is brilliant on it for being a heavy car; the wear is perfectly even, even on the front left tyre - it runs a lot of castor compared regular Z3/E36 BMWs (the top mounts are basically about 2" further back than standard).

[taylorspug 7]

I think extra castor is what's required so that the static camber isn't loads but the dynamic camber change is better (negative on the outside wheel and a touch positive on the inside wheel). I tracked my ZM Coupe at Donington last year and the tyre wear is brilliant on it for being a heavy car; the wear is perfectly even, even on the front left tyre - it runs a lot of castor compared regular Z3/E36 BMWs (the top mounts are basically about 2" further back than standard).

 

Hit the nail square on the head with that IMO.