How Much Would People Pay For A Mi16 Oil Surge Solution?

[jacobs53 0]

Hi, just testing the water at the minute. I have been looking into this problem for ages and ages, and there is only one explanation for the oil surge and thats a lack of oil in the sump... i'm not trying to turn this into why do mi16's suffer with oil surge topic.

 

Well, I have been looking into designing a affordable and easy to fit application which should elimate any oil surge, how I hear you ask?

 

Well the first solution is to provide a larger sump, which can hold more oil, include a windage tray and a trap door baffle. The second modification is to lower the oil pump to the sump floor, and finally change the oil pump drive ratio.

 

The product is aimed at a wide market, from the track day to the serious competitor, so it has to be easy to fit. So to achieve this only the sump and oil pump have to be removed, nothing else - should take less than an hour to fit.

 

The main problem - and only problem - is the cost of aluminium for the spacer plate, the piece required costs over 100.00 and I was hoping to sell the kits to retailers like AB motorsport for around 125.00, so I will probabily make a loss - which doesn't make ecomonic sense!

 

So first question to the forum... does anyone see any problems using a plastic? i.e. nylon? for the spacer plate, I personally think this would a cheaper solution which would still provide the same performance.

 

Next question... how much would you pay? The kit would consist of the following:

 

1) sump spacer plate (including windage tray and baffle)

2) oil pump spacer

3) new gear for oil pump

4) all bolts to fit

 

What do you all think?

 

lee

Edited February 26, 2007 by jacobs53

[jacobs53 0]

also does anyone know the thickness of the standard spacer plate? and is it completly flat?

 

I still need one, so PM me if you can supply me with one - must be cheap (i can even return it straight away)

 

thanks lee

[david932 0]

wouldn't the nylon become supple under the temp? personally i not sure whether i would want to risk it melting or coming apart and scrapping the engine

[Pugnut 9 1 Cars]

I have been looking into this problem for ages and ages, and there is only one explanation for the oil surge and thats a lack of oil in the sump...

 

no s*it sherlock

 

sorry , i'm not taking the pi55

 

what are you trying to achieve by changing the gearing on the oil pump? slowing the flow of oil or speeding it up?

 

will you be supplying an oil pump chain suited to the new sprocket and spacing, or will the old chain fit ok?

 

surely you need to do some r+d on this . give an mi16 death with a kit fitted before any retailers take you on?

 

hasn't all this been tried before with varying success?

[Baz 421]

Gotta agree with pugnut to an extent there, R&D comments etc.

 

Also, isn't half the problem lack of return from the head? (sorry, don't want to turn this into a debate as said)

 

I have a spare spacer pate atm lee, if you wanna borrow, pay postage etc then no probs.

[pdd144c 0]

Simple option is to buy a dry sump. Can be bought for less than a £1000.

 

Numerous people have tried with that kind of idea, and failed, as it doesn't cure the original problem.

[nick 3]

As above really. All this has been tried before.

 

Also, if your selling an "Mi16 oil surge solution kit" it's got to do what it says on the tin. i hope your prepared for angry mi owners waving bent cranks at you!

 

Nick

[boombang 2]

Couldn't you use the standard spacer plate off a 1.9 and the deeper sump off the XU10 iron blocks? That makes the spacer plate as near to free as you can get, and just need to tig on windage tray.

 

Oil pump spacer could just be a bit of milled ally welded to bottom of the pump cup.

 

New gear IIRC can be got from the XU10 also.

 

IIRC Petert does all of the above already, for sensible money.

[smckeown 1]

Hi, just testing the water at the minute.

 

Don't you mean testing the oil.

 

As per alex's remarks, sounds very similar to petert's already race proven system

 

Also be careful saying it's a cure..when it's wont be. It's an oil surge reduction system. Someone with wide slicks and going rather fast round a long sweeping bend could possibly still get oil surge

Edited February 27, 2007 by smckeown

[crf450 0 1 Cars]

Hi, just testing the water at the minute. I have been looking into this problem for ages and ages, and there is only one explanation for the oil surge and thats a lack of oil in the sump... i'm not trying to turn this into why do mi16's suffer with oil surge topic.

 

Well, I have been looking into designing a affordable and easy to fit application which should elimate any oil surge, how I hear you ask?

 

Well the first solution is to provide a larger sump, which can hold more oil, include a windage tray and a trap door baffle. The second modification is to lower the oil pump to the sump floor, and finally change the oil pump drive ratio.

 

The product is aimed at a wide market, from the track day to the serious competitor, so it has to be easy to fit. So to achieve this only the sump and oil pump have to be removed, nothing else - should take less than an hour to fit.

 

The main problem - and only problem - is the cost of aluminium for the spacer plate, the piece required costs over 100.00 and I was hoping to sell the kits to retailers like AB motorsport for around 125.00, so I will probabily make a loss - which doesn't make ecomonic sense!

 

So first question to the forum... does anyone see any problems using a plastic? i.e. nylon? for the spacer plate, I personally think this would a cheaper solution which would still provide the same performance.

 

Next question... how much would you pay? The kit would consist of the following:

 

1) sump spacer plate (including windage tray and baffle)

2) oil pump spacer

3) new gear for oil pump

4) all bolts to fit

 

What do you all think?

 

lee

 

You need to read through some of the threads on this subject and take notice of the people that's actually looked into the problem.

You haven't thought your thread through as there's loads of stuff you've overlooked if lowering the pump was the cure.

I don't mean to sound harsh but it I were you I'd delete this thread because it makes you look a knob sack and go and scratch your head for a bit longer. No offence like

[crf450 0 1 Cars]

Don't you mean testing the oil.

 

As per alex's remarks, sounds very similar to petert's already race proven system

 

Also be careful saying it's a cure..when it's wont be. It's an oil surge reduction system. Someone with wide slicks and going rather fast round a long sweeping bend could possibly still get oil surge

 

 

I tried this about a year before Alex and it made little difference on the two Mi engines I tried the kit on, I sold the kit in the end to BigD, we could ask him if it worked on his engine.

[jacobs53 0]

cheers for the comments guys!

 

Well a mixture of responses, il try and answer them all

 

wouldn't the nylon become supple under the temp? personally i not sure whether i would want to risk it melting or coming apart and scrapping the engine

 

im not sure i'l look into it.

 

what are you trying to achieve by changing the gearing on the oil pump? slowing the flow of oil or speeding it up?

 

will you be supplying an oil pump chain suited to the new sprocket and spacing, or will the old chain fit ok?

 

surely you need to do some r+d on this . give an mi16 death with a kit fitted before any retailers take you on?

 

The oil pump sprocket needs custom designing slightly smaller - reason is to utilize the standard oil pump chain. People with limited knowledge will not be prepared to take off one main cap to change the chain I know this because I wouldn't be arsed. The smaller sprocket will also enable the oil pressure to rise slightly faster, the sproket will be reduced by 7mm dia.

 

R and D, yeap definitly needs conduting!

 

Also, isn't half the problem lack of return from the head? (sorry, don't want to turn this into a debate as said)

 

I have a spare spacer pate atm lee, if you wanna borrow, pay postage etc then no probs.

 

yeah the oil return issue is the head, but one cheap and affordable solution is to fit external drains from the head, means driling and dismantling the cylinder head.

 

Definitly take you up on the spacer plate!

 

Simple option is to buy a dry sump. Can be bought for less than a £1000.

 

Numerous people have tried with that kind of idea, and failed, as it doesn't cure the original problem.

 

hi, some people haven't got £1000 to spend though, considering the 205 is cheap and affordable. I believe the issue can be solved with a large enough oil capacity in the sump, since people have already demonstrated.

 

As above really. All this has been tried before.

 

Also, if your selling an "Mi16 oil surge solution kit" it's got to do what it says on the tin. i hope your prepared for angry mi owners waving bent cranks at you!

 

Nick

 

bent cranks who has actually tried this method before? Were looking at a sump capacity increase to approx 6.5 - 7 litres of oil. Hopefully R and D will enable proof, but worn engines is a major consideration!

 

Couldn't you use the standard spacer plate off a 1.9 and the deeper sump off the XU10 iron blocks? That makes the spacer plate as near to free as you can get, and just need to tig on windage tray.

 

Oil pump spacer could just be a bit of milled ally welded to bottom of the pump cup.

 

New gear IIRC can be got from the XU10 also.

 

the XU10 sump to buy new from peugeot or citroen is 150.00 + VAT, this kit will be simplistic, where you can retain your orginal mi16 sump. welding is not an option, as not all people can weld. gear sprocket is custom to enable the original chain to be used.

 

As per alex's remarks, sounds very similar to petert's already race proven system

 

Also be careful saying it's a cure..when it's wont be. It's an oil surge reduction system. Someone with wide slicks and going rather fast round a long sweeping bend could possibly still get oil surge

 

yes its basically the same principle increasing the oil capacity. Yes again agreed its a method of reducing the oil surge problem, but the capacity is increasing considerably 7 litres would be alot more than a xu10 sump.

 

cheers for the feedback guys, keep it coming!

 

lee

[pdd144c 0]

hi, some people haven't got £1000 to spend though, considering the 205 is cheap and affordable. I believe the issue can be solved with a large enough oil capacity in the sump, since people have already demonstrated.

 

True, but it will solve the problem. You may have some success reducing the problem, but your idea won't solve it. It may be of some use for fast road and for the odd slower track day person, but not to a serious competitor.

[smckeown 1]

Can be bought for less than a £1000.

 

I think you need to double that!

[nick 3]

bent cranks who has actually tried this method before?

lee

 

Don't quite understand the smiley on the "bent cranks" comment, are you saying that isn't a problem?

 

PeterT, Martin (CRF450) have both tried what you are suggesting, both with varying levels of success (in Martins case, none)

 

Have you even done a search on the subject? it looks to me like you haven't.

 

To be honest, I find this thread a little patronising. To say that you are considering selling a solution to Mi oil surge problems when lots of people (me not included) on here have been trying to find the answer to surge for years (mostly by doing what you consider to be the "solution") without a great deal of success.

 

Nick

[smckeown 1]

i suppose the underlying message is, prove the solution first before trying to sell it

[jacobs53 0]

Have you even done a search on the subject? it looks to me like you haven't.

 

To be honest, I find this thread a little patronising. To say that you are considering selling a solution to Mi oil surge problems when lots of people (me not included) on here have been trying to find the answer to surge for years (mostly by doing what you consider to be the "solution") without a great deal of success.

 

im quite offended by that comment! The theory has been proven by PeterT but not be martin, so there must be differences in there methods, as the same method can't work for one but not for another.

 

If you think about the oil situation seriously, theres not enough oil in the sump due to a large amount of oil being retained in the cylinder head, so the simplistic option is to provide more oil. The Xu10 sump only permits around an extra litre of oil, and this method worked for PeterT. I could design a spacer to enable any capacity increase, although a limitation is ground clearance and the sump. So I can't see how this design could not reduce the oil starvation problem, especially when baffles and trapdoors are added.

 

In reality you could lower ths sump until the lower brace bar, which would allow an extra 2 litres minimum.

 

I was only trying to gauge some interest in the product before I started to design it, reason being is that you could design a product which would cost over 500.00 but would anyone buy it? So how much cash would you pay?

 

lee

Edited February 27, 2007 by jacobs53

[Pugnut 9 1 Cars]

im quite offended by that comment! The theory has been proven by PeterT but not be martin, so there must be differences in there methods, as the same method can't work for one but not for another.

 

If you think about the oil situation seriously, theres not enough oil in the sump due to a large amount of oil being retained in the cylinder head, so the simplistic option is to provide more oil. The Xu10 sump only permits around an extra litre of oil, and this method worked for PeterT. I could design a spacer to enable any capacity increase, although a limitation is ground clearance and the sump. So I can't see how this design could not reduce the oil starvation problem, especially when baffles and trapdoors are added.

 

In reality you could lower ths sump until the lower brace bar, which would allow an extra 2 litres minimum.

 

I was only trying to gauge some interest in the product before I started to design it, reason being is that you could design a product which would cost over 500.00 but would anyone buy it? So how much cash would you pay?

 

lee

 

iirc Martin also lowered his sump and extended the pickup with poor results?

[GLPoomobile 958]

I'd like to add my opinion. Even though I don't own an Mi and don't do track days, that doesn't mean I may not in the future, and whilst I have a limited budget I believe my opinion is as valid as anyone else's in this matter.

 

Given the huge amount of info on this forum regarding Mi oil surge, given the number of years since the problem was recognised, and the number of years that people have been trying to tackle it from various angles, with varying budgets, and varying backgrounds. And finally, given the difference in opinion on what is the true cause of the issue, I believe that you haven't properly thought this through. Ultimately, I would not pay ANYTHING for this 'solution' until it had been properly proven!

 

Despite saying this is a 'solution' you actually mention further on about the recognised problem with oil return from the head

 

Sorry if I'm being overly critical, but I think you are going off half cocked

[Batfink 201]

such negativity! I think i'll pm you instead

[nick 3]

So if the problem is the head holding more oil (for arguments sake, 1 litre) why not just start the engine and add 1 litre of extra oil (basically compensate for what is in the head) hey presto!! no oil surge and no money paid out on deeper sumps etc......

If it's down to oil being kept in the 16v head how come you can run an 8v low on oil but still not get oil surge? similar (but not the same) bottom end, only difference being the head.

 

It isn't that simple and I'm still not convinced that the head is the major problem anyway.

 

This is the point of my reply, I don't see any "solution" to put a price on.

 

Make a kit, do some trackdays, prove you have the solution and then come up with a price.

 

Nick

[WildCards 0]

If dry sump kits work, why don't you put your efforts into making a more cost effective one?

[James_m 0]

Just my 2pence worth....

IIRC, the XU10 sump combined with the spacer plate displaces 6.5litres, so not that much less than your idea, and i agree that i dont understand how this could'nt improve the situation....

But, how will the oil pump changes make any difference? if there is no oil at the pick up, it does'nt matter how quickly the pump is turning over....

 

An idea i had, which is probably stupid for an obvious reason overlooked is - could'nt some kind of cradle be made to fit inside the head so it physically displaces less oil? It would have to be like a big jigsaw to fit but it seems like a good idea to me! The GTI-6 head holds considerably less oil so im told, and that does'nt seem to surge *As bad* as the S16/Mi16

[Batfink 201]

An idea i had, which is probably stupid for an obvious reason overlooked is - could'nt some kind of cradle be made to fit inside the head so it physically displaces less oil? It would have to be like a big jigsaw to fit but it seems like a good idea to me! The GTI-6 head holds considerably less oil so im told, and that does'nt seem to surge *As bad* as the S16/Mi16

 

I had this idea too

Never looked at the head design to see if this is feasable though!

[Anthony 1,002]

Just to chuck some fuel on the fire here, but from memory Petert uses a design similar to what Lee is proposing and it's proven to work on track/race cars that he's prepped.

 

This can be purchased directly from him for a fairly modest cost, and in that respect I question whether you're trying to reinvent the wheel (so to speak) Lee unless you can offer the setup at a considerably lower price.

 

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