Suggestions For Best Road Rally Rear Beam Setup

[joni 0]

I've jsut got my 205 back on the road after 18months of torture not being able to drive it. New shells and rings fitted and almost run in. Its so easy to put a smile on my face!

 

One thing i've noticed is that while the handling is fairly predictable the tail is quite loose (looser than i remember). I do like the current handling (i think the roll cage has helped) but theres just a bit too much oversteer and transient manoeuvers (e.g. a shicane turning from cornering in one direction to the other) feels slightly unstable. THe car is fairly stable though for a 205 and you can quite happlily flick the tail out and easily catch it. If you power around a roundabout at speed the tail sits out slightly and the car behaves well. The rear of the car feels like it is leaning more than the front. If you let off it oversteers and you can easily just play with it using hte accelerator.

 

At the front i have 309 wishbones, driveshafts and shocks/springs and this setup is great. Cheap and cheerful and makes such a difference to the steering. At the rear its a 205 1.6 gti beam bog standard with drums.

 

The car is used for road rallies, so the use of the handbrake is important and good ground clearance, stabilty and predictability are also important.

 

So i want to know suggestions of best approach for rear suspension without spending a lot of money. I guess there are a number of options but some of the possibilities i have been considering to reduce the looseness of the tail are:

 

1. I have a 309 gti rear axle in good condition which i could fit.

2. I could try fitting the dampers from the 309 axle to see if they help.

3. I could fit a solid mount kit

4. A combination of 1 and 2.

5. buy some new dampers?

 

If i fit the 309 axle can i fit the drums on to it or do i have to stick with discs? and if i ahve to stick with discs do i have to change the master cylinder? I think i remember reading about this. I do have the spare master cylinder from a 205 1.9 gti and the one froma 1.9 309 gti.

 

Can anyone help/suggest?

[Rob Thomson 6]

Not a full answer, but solid mounts will certainly help with the transients. Oversteering Peugeots have never bothered me, but it's the transition from oversteer one way to oversteer the other way that make me slightly nervous. The solid mount kit fixes that, makes it much much nicer to drive on the limit.

 

Regarding the drums, I don't know whether you can fit them to a 309 GTi beam but I'd just like to say that I've never been convinced about the pro-drums handbrake argument. My old 309 (with discs) used to twirl quite happily all night long. My current 205 GTi 1.6 isn't any better.

[johnrobertgordon 0]

I know many people are going to disagree with me but I am going to say standard 1.6 beam.

 

My reasons are, drums have always performed better for me than disk's. I find it grabs much better than disk's when on the handbrake.

And I don't feel the need for a wider rear track, I would say go wider for the the circuit boys but in the twisties a narrower track is going to give more of a benefit.

 

I used a 1.6 beam with grp N bilsteins, worked a treat.

[johnrobertgordon 0]

Regarding the drums, I don't know whether you can fit them to a 309 GTi beam but I'd just like to say that I've never been convinced about the pro-drums handbrake argument. My old 309 (with discs) used to twirl quite happily all night long. My current 205 GTi 1.6 isn't any better.

 

 

Told you people would disagree

[welshpug 1,657]

how about uprated Anti roll bar/'s?

[Craigb 2]

My opinion

 

Stick with your 1.6 axle and drums

 

Solid mount makes a massive difference

 

Buy some bilstein dampers , the std ones are no good for road rallies .

[joni 0]

Like the answers i'm getting. I thought the solid kit might be the way forward and some new dampers.

 

Interested about the anti rollbar idea too. I guess i have this on the 309 axle so may be a possibility btu prob wont fit a if i keep my 205 1.6 rear axle.

 

Where can i find the cheapest good solid mount kit?

[johnrobertgordon 0]

Baker Bushes and Mounts, go for the shaped blocks.

[Super Josh 4]

The 309 parts won't fir the 205 beam because they are too wide. You also have a PM regarding the solid mounts.

 

 

 

 

Josh

[Ahl 4]

Like the answers i'm getting. I thought the solid kit might be the way forward and some new dampers.

 

Interested about the anti rollbar idea too. I guess i have this on the 309 axle so may be a possibility btu prob wont fit a if i keep my 205 1.6 rear axle.

 

Where can i find the cheapest good solid mount kit?

I've heard you can shorten the 309 arb fairly easily as its just spring steel, unlike the toughened torsion bars. Might be bollocks though.

[Rippthrough 98]

You might not want to run an uprated arb for road rallies though, I'd try it with and without and decide whether the extra body control is worth the trade off in grip.

[SPGTi 2]

I heard something last week from a very well known rally driver that has had a lot of experience with Pugs. Remove the rear ARB completely.

Now who is up for that !!! The only thing I am not sure of though is what dampers he is using at the rear. I presume they would be a Proflex or equivalent which would probably be a lot different to Bilsteins etc without an ARB.

 

Steve

[Pugnut 9 1 Cars]

a rear discs set up give a wider rear track on its own , so if you wanted to use the 309 rear beam with drums you wouldn't be quite as wide as a 309 beam with discs. the 309 axle with drums would probably be marginally wider than a 205 beam with discs.

[joni 0]

My opinion

 

Stick with your 1.6 axle and drums

 

Solid mount makes a massive difference

 

Buy some bilstein dampers , the std ones are no good for road rallies .

 

 

Bog standard bilsteins or adjustables? What are konis like and all teh other makes. I know everyone raves about bilsteins btu are they really so much better?

 

Think i will go for a solid mount kit and new set of dampers.

 

As for the arb, i think changing it may effect the grip level and encourage 'jacking'. Gonna stick with the 1.6 axle at the mo too as i love how manoeuverable the car is around triangles and i do like the current setup its just that its a bit loose so i reckong hte solid mount and dampers should sort it.

[Craigb 2]

Bog standard bilsteins or adjustables? What are konis like and all teh other makes. I know everyone raves about bilsteins btu are they really so much better?

 

 

 

Think i will go for a solid mount kit and new set of dampers.

 

As for the arb, i think changing it may effect the grip level and encourage 'jacking'. Gonna stick with the 1.6 axle at the mo too as i love how manoeuverable the car is around triangles and i do like the current setup its just that its a bit loose so i reckong hte solid mount and dampers should sort it.

 

They don't need to be adjustable , as part of the 205 challenge they do a fixed mount set for the front as for the rear you have a choice 205 tarmac or gravel , both better than std , or as I'm using 306 gravel . and yes they are so much better

 

I don't know of anyone road rallying a 205 that has done anything with the rear ARB, the front is usually disconnected for wet gravel stages eg RAC in November

Edited January 16, 2007 by Craigb

[pdd144c 0]

PM sent.

[joni 0]

So just had a look at the rear beam on my 205 after being told about crabbing and a creaky rear end.

 

Its a 1.6 with drums and its the first time i've jacked it under the sills and not the bottom of the dampers.

hmmm..... now i know why the tail is 'loose'! Both sides have bearing wear and you can move the radius arms around by pulling them.

So... i could rebuild it but i don't have much time and i have a 309 rear beam sitting at home which is in good condition (as mentioned earlier).

 

I'd value the stiffer torsion bars of the 309 as the rear on my car is constantly bottoming out over yumps (the wear is clear in the arches). My only concern is with the wider track my tyres will catch where the rear wing comes down. What do people do about this problem? Cut the arches out or just fit uprated shocks? Will uprated shocks stop the tyres from touching the inner arches?

I will be fitting a solid mount kit when i change the beam.

[Craigb 2]

I'd value the stiffer torsion bars of the 309 as the rear on my car is constantly bottoming out over yumps (the wear is clear in the arches). My only concern is with the wider track my tyres will catch where the rear wing comes down. What do people do about this problem? Cut the arches out or just fit uprated shocks? Will uprated shocks stop the tyres from touching the inner arches?

I will be fitting a solid mount kit when i change the beam.

 

Take the rear arches off and fold back the return lip to give you some extra clearance.

 

What tyres are you using ?

 

Make sure you have the bump stops fitted on the back , the uprated shocks will not stop tyre contact over the severe bumps .

 

I'm using 306 gravel shocks on the back , and these stop the vicious kick that you still get from the 205 spec bilsteins.

 

I run a std rear beam with 5mm spacers , and that causes no major issues using the 035 yokohamas

[joni 0]

Take the rear arches off and fold back the return lip to give you some extra clearance.

 

What tyres are you using ?

 

Make sure you have the bump stops fitted on the back , the uprated shocks will not stop tyre contact over the severe bumps .

 

I'm using 306 gravel shocks on the back , and these stop the vicious kick that you still get from the 205 spec bilsteins.

 

I run a std rear beam with 5mm spacers , and that causes no major issues using the 035 yokohamas

 

So fold the arch lip into the arch i presume, rather than out?

 

Tyes - Bridgestone potenzas. Not the best in the mud but our times were as fast as the fastest crews on the Taunton down the muddy lanes, so can't complain. May change to a035's sometime - what size do you run and what compound?

 

Bump stops?! First i've heard of them! Where are they located? Think i need some! Can you get comp bump stops or just standard?

 

Think i'm going to use the 309 rear beam with solid mount kit and drums then. Still need to get the uprated shocks for the back.

 

Fancy a trip down to Exeter for the Rally of the Moors? Best ASWMC rally 05/06, its going to be a good one.

[Craigb 2]

So fold the arch lip into the arch i presume, rather than out?

 

Yes

 

Tyes - Bridgestone potenzas. Not the best in the mud but our times were as fast as the fastest crews on the Taunton down the muddy lanes, so can't complain. May change to a035's sometime - what size do you run and what compound?

 

Yokohama 035 (A30 SS) (A50 S) 185/60/15 use both , it depends whats available

 

Bump stops?! First I've heard of them! Where are they located? Think i need some! Can you get comp bump stops or just standard?

 

The std conical rubber stop fastened by a cup that is bolted to the underside of the inner arch.

 

Think I'm going to use the 309 rear beam with solid mount kit and drums then. Still need to get the uprated shocks for the back.

 

Fancy a trip down to Exeter for the Rally of the Moors? Best ASWMC rally 05/06, its going to be a good one.

 

Bit of a trek that

 

The main thing I'm having trouble with at the moment is finding a new navigator , after my brother decided he was not going to do any more night events

[Mr_E 7]

For road rallying I have used both drums and discs on the back of my pugs and never had any probs with the handbrake working on either of them and thats using Yoko 21r's, 48r's, A539's, Pirelli PZero's tarmac tyres or Khumo K700 gravel tyres.

Suspension wise I had standard height, standard arb and standard torsion bars with Bilstein gravel dampers and never really had any trouble with it twitching too much, if in doubt keep it flat out as they say.

I was course car on the Border100 and the Briedden with this setup, and got 8th overall on the Eagle (all 2005) so it cant be that bad as standard, the dampers do make a fair bit of difference though.

The car im building now will be lowered 1", standard arb, standard bars, with grpA bushes and AVO adjustables on the back for tarmac single venues. Should be alright for me.

I have never used a hydraulic handbrake on my cars either as the cables have always worked, i dont even use a flyoff handbrake as im so used to just pressing the button!

[joni 0]

I def dont have any bump stops which would explain the arch rubbing. Are there any uprated one or should i just fit standard pug ones?

Do i need to cut them down at all?

Got my 309 rear beam and it looks in good condition - like it has been reconned in teh past. There is no play in teh bearings. Solid mont kit on its way so should be fitting the beam this week in teh evenings.

 

Any advice on teh bump stops?

[Craigb 2]

I just use std ones on mine, you will still touch the inner arch on the big bumps though , they are really there to stop the dampers going solid rather than protecting the arches though

[joni 0]

Shame that, i was hoping to get away with not butchering the arches.

 

If i don't turn in the arches due to the 309 beam track do you think it will be asking for a puncture?

[Craigb 2]

Shame that, i was hoping to get away with not butchering the arches.

 

If i don't turn in the arches due to the 309 beam track do you think it will be asking for a puncture?

 

Try it out on the road first , a few hearty corners , should see if you are going to make contact before any real damage is done !