Track Width Differences - 1.6 1.9 309

[kyepan 291]

Hi there,

 

As I understand it, the offset of my 1.6 hubs is different and gives a wider track (nicked from maxi's post about 1.6 brake upgrades) to the 1.9 hubs I would need to run 309 wishbones and driveshafts for a neggy camber front set up.

 

Exactly how much difference in track width is there between the 1.6, 1.9 and 309 set ups respectivly?

 

Ps. I have searched for ages, and whilst offset is constantly mentioned as the reason why brakes are incompatible, nobody actually says what the measured difference is between set ups.

 

The reason I ask is, and please excuse my ignorance, but if the 1.6 has wider track, and the 309 has wider track but different offset, where does the negative camber come from on the 309 set up.

 

 

 

Hope someone has a spec sheet or some other doc handy to shed some light on this little conundrum

 

cheers

 

Justin

[Sandy 191]

309 arms are about 18mm a side longer, the 309GTi hubs and carriers are the same as 1.9 GTi 205.

[kyepan 291]

309 arms are about 18mm a side longer, the 309GTi hubs and carriers are the same as 1.9 GTi 205.

cheers sandy,

 

anyone know what the difference in offset between the 1.6 and 1.9 hubs is?

[pdd144c 0]

No, but why does everyone use the 309 shafts?! There really is no need.

[chunkymonkey 0]

No, but why does everyone use the 309 shafts?! There really is no need.

hi pdd144c

im just gathering parts ready to change my front end to the 309 wishbones.

there are many posts on here stateing 309 wishbones should be used or they can pop out on tight turns??

i never tryed with or with out ?

im looking for the most reliable option.

whats your thoughts?

cheers gaz

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

anyone know what the difference in offset between the 1.6 and 1.9 hubs is?

All XU engined 309's have the same hubs afaik, I used a diesel one when the balljoint hole went oval on my old 309 1.6 SRi.

 

Gaz, I'd use the 309 shafts.

 

Graham.

[chunkymonkey 0]

All XU engined 309's have the same hubs afaik, I used a diesel one when the balljoint hole went oval on my old 309 1.6 SRi.

 

Gaz, I'd use the 309 shafts.

 

Graham.

cheers graham then thats what i shall do!

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

I used 309 shaft's when I had this on my 205, better safe than sorry. I have heard of the odd one with 205 shafts that have had problems, I think it's luck of the draw just like the master cylinder clearance on the 16v engine's

[Sandy 191]

All XU engined 309's have the same hubs afaik, I used a diesel one when the balljoint hole went oval on my old 309 1.6 SRi.

 

Gaz, I'd use the 309 shafts.

 

Graham.

The 1.6 XU and XUD 309 hubs are the same, but XUDT and 1.9 GTi are different (bigger spline diameter).

[pdd144c 0]

Gaz, I'd use the 309 shafts.

 

Explain please Graham!

Edited December 14, 2006 by pdd144c

[kyepan 291]

he he, it's good that this is answering other questions but i'm still after the difference in offset for the 1.6 and 1.9 hubs, to understand the difference in track width. any help appreciated.

[Sandy 191]

It would appear to be 10mm a side from the Disc offsets.

[Sam 4]

I'm sure someone on here had issues with the driveshaft actually staying in the box when they fitted 309 arms with 205 shafts.

[kyepan 291]

So heres the results folks track widths are as follows on the different possible combinations of hubs and wishbones.

 

 

1.9 is the narrowest standard Front Track at 1393mm .... 1.9 hubs and normal wishbones = 1.6 track - 20mm width because of hub offset.

 

1.6 is the widest standard Front Track at 1413mm.......1.6 hubs and normal wishbones = 1.9 track + 20mm, or 16mm less than 1.9 hubs and 309 bones.

 

Widest track with correct driveshafts and 1.9 hubs 1429mm = + 36mm for the 309 wishbones - 20mm for 1.9 offset = 1.6 offset + 16mm width.

 

With 1.6 hubs and 309 bones an even wider front track of 1449mm = 56mm more track than a standard 1.9 (however some people expereince drive shafts popping out using this set up.

 

hopes this helps and of course the 309 bones will give the 1 degreee ish of negative camber

 

cheers

justin

Edited December 14, 2006 by kyepan

[pdd144c 0]

I'm sure someone on here had issues with the driveshaft actually staying in the box when they fitted 309 arms with 205 shafts.

 

Robs and mine have always been fine with the 309 arms and 205 shafts... Never had a problem.

[Sam 4]

I guess its a luck thing, perhaps variation in the shafts on the cars. Better safe than sorry I guess

[jackherer 543]

IIRC it was AndyY who had a shaft pop out...

[pdd144c 0]

Was AndyY's car standard ride height? Or lowered?

[Sam 4]

As far as I can remember he was lowered, probably ~40mm

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

The 1.6 XU and XUD 309 hubs are the same, but XUDT and 1.9 GTi are different (bigger spline diameter).

Hub spline? Looking on the parts cd it lists the same one for all XU engines (infact nearly all 309's). I've got some driveshafts from an XUD 309 & they fit my 1.9 GTi hubs perfectly. The main hub is also the same on most 309's. parts cd

 

Explain please Graham!

Easy & like Miles says, better safe than sorry.

 

Gaz is getting new drivershafts so why spend the same amount of money on new 205 shafts & run the risk of one popping out (as they are known to have done) when he can get the 309 shafts for the same or similar money(cheaper in some cases).

 

Sam & Kieran, it was AndyY that had the driveshaft come out of the gearbox when he had 205 shafts on with 309 wishbones.

 

Graham.

[pdd144c 0]

From what I gather Gaz already has the standard setup. So why waste money buying new 309 ones for no reason?!

 

No one seems to have a valid reason for running the 309 ones, just seems to be on the back of AndyY's experience.

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

Yes, Gaz currently has the standard 1.9 set up on a lowered 205 but for the simple fact that he is fitting the 309 wishbones to his car & wants the right driveshafts to suit.

 

AndyY isn't the only person that has had a driveshaft pull out of the gearbox running 309 wishbones & 205 shafts, I just can't remember the names of those who have also suffered.

 

When people were first talking about fitting the 309 front set up & discussing the use of driveshafts it was mentioned you could get away with 205 driveshafts but slightly more ideal is using either the 309 ones or a machined spacer to distance the hub slightly to allow for the extra wishbone length.

 

On an everyday driver, I'd choose the 309 driveshafts anyday.

 

Graham.

[pdd144c 0]

Fair enough. A lot of the race cars run standard length shafts and 309 arms with no issues, one of the reasons I went this route.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

I know the hub's on my 309 XSi where as the std 1.9 GTi spec and all the shaft's fitted I tried, GTi, Derv ones but never a 1.4 but I would assume they are smaller like the base 205's

I know that years and years ago Pug Sport made some 1.6 spec hub's (Offset) with the 1.9 shaft hole, if you can find any buy them

[chunkymonkey 0]

ive got the 309 wishbones,bushes etc ready for the job.

 

im just looking to find some 309 driveshafts preferably new and of good quality

i know i can get reconditioned ones from the local motor factors like gsf,for 40 plus vat each

yet ive been searching the net and west midlands motor sport do some for 80 inc vat each

wms only have the 205gti driveshafts advertised in there 205/309 gti section???

i was going to order those.

but i do want 309 gti driveshafts as i dont want to take any chances.it just doesnt seem worth the hassle

cheers gaz

p.s any one who knows of a quality driveshaft supplier please speak up!