Getting A Bit Confused - Have I Got This Right?

[axnutty 10]

Righto,

 

First off ive been searching alot on this subject to try and bring myself up to speed... I just want to clear a few things up though. Can anyone tell me if ive got this right. Or if im just getting confuddled. Starting from the basics....

 

1./ The 1.9GTi is the XU9 engine. This is a 8v alloy engine making 130bhp (non cat) and the ECU controls just the injection system. Ignition is taken care of by the distrubuter.

 

2./ The XU10 engine was found in the 605, Xantia and XM. This was a 2.0litre and presumably alloy block as well. It is similar to the XU9 but has been improved upon. Bigger valves, different port shapes, different inlet, and no dizzy. The ECU controls everything.

 

3./ The XU10 was also fitted with a turbo in some models. Code XU10J2ATE. and made 140bhp (early CR 8.1 ~ code RGY) 150bhp (later CR 8.5:1 code ~ RGX)

 

4./ It is possible to fit one of these XU10J2ATE engines into a 205, but difficulties arise with wiring the engine loom into the 205 loom. But once in the engine gives a 20bhp increase in power (with lots of scope for tuning on top) with little increase in weight to the car.

 

5./ The XU10J2ATE engine exhaust manifold would bolt onto a 1.9 XU9 8v engine? Potentially allowing the XU9 to be turbo charged.

 

6./ The XU10 cylinder head whilst better than the XU9 head has a different port angle on the inlet side which is abit restrictive if used with the original XU9 inlet manifold.

 

7./ There is no easy way of running the XU10 head with the XU10 inlet manifold unless you run the XU10 ECU etc as well. (Different AFM etc)

 

8./ Using the XU10 cylinder head on a XU9 block creates an issue in head gasket choice?? Presumably due to different liner thicknesses??

 

 

 

Sorry for so many questions. I have spent alot of time searching out info, but as I said intially it can all get a bit confusing. I was just looking at "cheap" (it never is I know) tuning options. The XU10 head initially looked a good place to start as a NA tuning option. But then with the XU10J2ATE engines I was wondering the legistics in making a turbocharged 1.9 8v. A homebrew TT as it were.

 

Techincally speaking getting the XU10J2ATE exhaust manifold and turbo and fitting it to a XU9 engine whilst retaining the XU9 head, inlet, dizzy and ecu doesnt seem to difficult (??) then wiring in an MF2 to control the extra injector and a remap of the standard ecu. If l were to keep to low boost presumably I could get away with the high compression ratio. Or would I have to be looking into getting pistons skimmed? (if the crown will allow it?) Alternatively if I were to use the XU10J2ATE head as well on the XU9 engine am I right in thinking this brings the CR down in itself anyway.... but leads to the problem of what to control the spark? As the original XU9 dizzy wont have a home anymore. [Leading to the obvious idea of why not just put the whole XU10J2ATE engine in and wire up the XU10J2ATE ECU!!]

 

Hope that all makes sense. Really if someone could just give me some "yes" / "no" answers I'd really appriciate it. I hadnt even heard of a XU10 engine until last week! So please bear with me.

[Banjo 1]

1. Yes

 

2. Iron block, yes

 

3. Yes

 

4. Yes, wirings not too bad, harder than an mi but not much.

 

5. Not sure

 

6. Not really, the port shape is different, round on the xu10 square on the xu9

 

7. You can use xu9 inlet and dizzy with xu10 head and xu9 cam

 

8. xu10 is iron block so no liners and slightly bigger bore than xu10 so yes headgasket can be a problem but not too bad in n/a form.

 

The xu9 ecu is not mappable as its analog.

hth,

Ben

Edited November 24, 2006 by Banjo

[TEKNOPUG 3]

1. Yes

 

2. Yes but iron block (also 406, 306 etc)

 

3. Yes

 

4. Yes - however, wiring isn't difficult, as in physically hard, just difficult if you don't have the relative instructions. The engine is iron - so it is heavier than the XU9. Tuning potential upto about 190bhp without significant mods.

 

5. Yes (I think) However, the XU10 manifold is of a poor design and will restrict power. There are a couple of other aftermarket manifolds that are a better choice for using with an XU9

 

6. In theory the XU10 head is better as it has bigger inlet valves. I have yet to see conclusive evidence that swapping a XU10 head for an XU9 gives better power (on an XU9 engine).

 

7. Do you mean on an XU9 ecu/set up?

 

8. Yes - but there is a fix - 306 gasket maybe? It's not an issue in so much as others have found a cure for it.

 

XU10J2ATE are cheap so it's probably easiest just to drop one in. As previously mentioned, the manifold is poorly designed and you would need to exchange that for an aftermarket one if you want over 200bhp. XU10 bottom end is strong, so would be a could choice is you were looking to run big boost/power. Would need to upgrade turbo and go standalone engine management also.

 

However, you can also get good power from the XU9 engine. The best one to use is from a later CAT model, as they run low compression of about 8.5, ideal for turbo-charging. They also have an ecu which controls both igniton and fuel. This can be remapped to cater for the boost. Or you can use a standard XU9, get the pistons dished to lower the compression, use aftermarket ecu and off you go.

 

Look here: http://www.dp-engineering.nl/EN/index.php and also here: http://www.205parts.com/

 

Depends on how much you want to spend, how much power and what sort of power delivery etc

[axnutty 10]

7. Do you mean on an XU9 ecu/set up?

 

Yes

 

Depends on how much you want to spend, how much power and what sort of power delivery etc

 

Really I was just looking at alternate options to Mi engines. As its getting hard to find them for anything like good money. Given you'll have refurb costs to think about as well. So I was taking a bench mark of 150bhp and just researching some methods of getting there. What's involved and what sort of costs.

 

So the XU10 block weighs in at 40kg. I'm guessing everything else between the engines weighs the same. So given a XU9 with 4 liners weighs in at 21kg. We are looking at increase in weight of roughly 20kg + turbo + turbo ancillaries. Say an extra 50kg to be on the safe side. So all said and done the extra weight involved in a XU10J2ATE engine really isn't that prohibitive. It sounds like by far the easiest method is to just drop the complete engine in like you say.

 

However given I've a sadistic streak and if I felt the need to go down the turbo XU9 route the answer is get a late model cat engine, fit the exhaust manifold and turbo from the XU10J2ATE and then fit an MF2 and 5th injector. Then get the later ECU remapped. Although ideally id want a better exhaust manifold, but then that can be a later update I suppose, although ideally would need remapping again.

 

This leads to three new questions.

 

1./ What's the exhaust clearance like from the XU10J2ATE exhaust mani - and presumably the fabrication work involved in coupling it to the existing 205 downpipe isn't too extreme? Not that it matters too much, just was wondering what I would be up against.

 

2./ The original Turbo Technics cars used the XU9 engine complete with dizzy did they not? Did they run a standalone ECU for the fuel then? Given they couldn't remap the original ECU.

 

3./ The next question is lets presume I decided 150bhp was enough and didn't want to go further with engine tuning. (Which pray God is where I would leave things alone but as of yet ive never stopped at a sensible level in the past for long ) That figure is well within the range of a NA XU9 engine. I take it a decent cam (and therefore carbs as well to get rid of AFM issues), decent exhaust manifold and light port work would see this figure? But the costs of this, even second hand parts and taking my time hunting out the bargins, it still comes back to fitting the XU10J2ATE engine as the cheapest way of a power hike in the 205?

 

EDIT: http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?s...l=twin+45's <- answered that last Q myself!

Edited November 24, 2006 by axnutty

[TEKNOPUG 3]

It's easier with a later CAT model as it already has a suitable compression ratio, but the CR can be changed in other ways. Because the later Motronic ecu controls ignition and fuel, you wouldn't require a 5th injector; just larger injectors.

 

2. TT's use the standard ECU. It has an ignition retard capsule within the distributor. It runs just like a normal XU9 until it comes on boost and the the 5th injector increases the fuel rate using a boost/threshold controller (MF2 if you like). It's crude but it works. To put it in perspective, a standard TT will run about 170ish BHP, if you convert to aftermarket management and get the fueling & ignition mapped properly, you're looking at around 190ish bhp on exactly the same engine and boost.

 

If you are looking for around 180bhp then the Mi16/S16/Gti-6 is probably the most cost effective route to take. However, I reckon that if you are looking for anymore power, turbocharging is a more economical and reliable method. You get a much bigger wallop of torque also. Totally different driving characteristics of course.

[sonofsam 5]

1./ What's the exhaust clearance like from the XU10J2ATE exhaust mani - and presumably the fabrication work involved in coupling it to the existing 205 downpipe isn't too extreme? Not that it matters too much, just was wondering what I would be up against.

 

Nothing to extreme!Exhaust flange needs re-angling, so you may aswell make a slightly larger bore downpipe than standard to begin with.2.5" is ideal.Plus you dont want that splitter section that an N/A 205 runs.

 

Yeah I think the easiest and cheapest is to fit an XU10 T. plus you get the benefit of no AFM ( uses a MAP sensor instead ) and has perfect idling characteristics

 

The XU10J2ATE ECU can be remapped also:D@ a price of course!

[axnutty 10]

Hmmm, very interesting. Well Ive got a much clearer picture on what options lay ahead of me. Tuning the standard 8v seems to be very expensive for little return. I guess it must have been a well tuned road engine to start with. Especially back in 1900 and dot when it first came out!

 

Well its sorted then. The XU10J2ATE engine seems to be the way forward. 150bhp striaght in, and bags of tuning potential.

 

There doesnt seem any point pissing about with sticking the XU9 grafting on XU10J2ATE head and turbo to save an extra 20kg from having an alloy block. Just stick the lot in. If (more like when) I decide 150bhp just isnt enough in a little car and need to further my forward force potential I have the option of a TT manifold from 205parts (as you guided me to - thanks ) larger turbos, increased boost pressures, and have the better motronic ECU that can handle the remaps. (Anyone know a guide price at all?)

 

The 205 I'm looking at getting (Wurzel from here - but not been on for a long time!) is on a Jetronic ECU it just seems to make sense. However he has spent a fortune on the engine renewing everything, and it does seem to be a bit of a waste to say the least! I will have to see what happens

 

To throw a real spanner in the works I happen to have a '95 Citroen Xantia 2.0 16v sat on my driveway not doing an awful lot and with rear arches rustier than Margaret Thatchers chasity belt. But with only 137bhp it didnt seem much of a starter? At least according to these threads its not:

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?s...antia+2\.0

 

and

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?s...antia+2\.0

 

as it seems that yes more power can be had from it but you need to upgrade cams and management. Which no doubt will be pricey - troublesome and possibley difficult to find at a decent price. So in reality it again comes back to this XU10J2ATE engine.

 

A new search I think maybe involved now! Whats exactly needed to get it to fit!

Edited November 24, 2006 by axnutty

[axnutty 10]

1./Unlock the ECU before you take engine out of car.

Find out what engine code it has that will determine wich top mount you need.Earlier engines require Mi16 top mount were as later ones require 306 XSI/s16 top mount..probably on lots of other cars also

2./Custom alternator mount.

3./Gearbox speed sensor.

4./Lambda probe in exhaust.

5./reangled or custom downpipe.

6./Fuel return line extending to miss turbo.

7./Mi16 throttle cable.

8./ECU plug lengthening to fit inside car if you wish.

9./Lower engine mount fork needs extending 10-15mm.

10./Mi16 flywheel and clutch is needed also 1.9 box is a good choice.

11./Custom pipework for I/C

 

To quote you there SonofSam from an earlier thread

 

 

Although its easy for me to say this sat here in true forum stylee, none of that souds too difficult!

 

1./ Just start the donor car up and disconnect the keypad.

2./ Just fabricate a mount

3./ Hmm...im guessing there is a different model that may lend a speedo drive?

4./ Weld a plate to the downpipe and tap a thread - screw lambda in.

5./ As already said buy the appropriate pipe and weld up

6./ Just buy some new pipe

7./ Just buy a Mi cable

8./ Where does the original ECU sit? Although given ill have just rewired the engine loom to car loom i think extending the ecu wires shouldnt seem to daunting. Just do one at a time I guess

9./ Bit of welding again

10./ Just need to find an Mi flywheel in goo dcondition...which maybe harder than I think. I dont know - cant say ive ever been looking.

11./ I see some people have claimed that the IC piping wasnt easy...but I cant see I'd get stuck on it.

 

To add to this conversion list :-

 

Do I not have to change any of the water coolant pipes?

 

Does the brake servo get in the way at all?

 

Apparantly the 605 2.0litre turbos have the numbers stamped on the engine looms...which makes life easier?

 

Is there any pics of what wires go where on any guides anywhere to the wiring side of things? Ive tried searching various combinations of: "XU10J2ATE" "turbo" "wiring" "wire" XU10" "2.0litre" but not got anywhere

[PsychoSimon 0]

I have never had anything to do with the 8v turbo but i have heard a lt about them through talking to various people, so please excuse any none answers as i dont want to fill you with bullsh*t i will just tell you what I know:

 

1 - you need to start the donor car and disconnect the ECU not the keypad. If you just disconnect the keypad the immobiliser module will still recode the ecu

2 - as you say just fabricate a mount or find one from (i think) an NA 2.0 8v such as 306 xsi

3 - not a clue

4 - you can cut a lambda boss out of another downpipe, or you can also buy an adaptor to weld in

5 - as you say

6 - again as you say just make sure its high pressure pipe

7 - you can get a 405 universal throttle cable which you cut to length

8 - eu sits in different places. pugs sit in the engine bay, citroens sit under the drivers seat i think

9 - as you say

10 - mi flywheels arent hard to get hold of. late 1.9gti ones also hav the timing teeth. if you dont mind converting to a pull type clutch you can use a td one, or any later injection petrol one

11 - trial and error. there are lots of pics of peoples installs on here to get ideas from

[sonofsam 5]

I can guide you through the wiring if need be when the time comes:D but if you want an insight check out Alastairh's recent post on wiring in 2.0L Mi. its basically the same as the S16 loom, ( Motroinc MP3.2 )just a few differnces with inertia switch etc..or there is a post by Joakim Enockson (sp?) were I guided him through it, but would'nt want to make it seem over complicated for you:)

 

No need to fabricate any mounts really for the alternator, can get a pic up of how I did mine if you like.

 

Yeah plenty of models have those speedo drives, although it is only used in conjuction with the speed sensor module to control fuelling on overun ( wich I dont have as my loom was butchered ) and my fuel consumption has been surprisingly good!

 

Original ECU position is in the engine bay.I have mine where the jack usually sits, but soon to be moved over by the battery ( not really looking forward to that job:( or into best place in the cabin.

 

Yes water pipes need modifying, nothing a few T-pieces and jubilee clips wont sort;)

 

Turbo compressor housing fouls on the brake servo and the original Turbo plastic outlet is very tight against the fuel filter, so I extended the lower mount fork by 15mm although I have heard you can get away without doing this, be interested to hear how?

 

Also the gear linkages need messing about with too

 

The xtra weight has made little to no difference on the handling side of things, guess it comes down to what

suspension your running too;)

[axnutty 10]

Great stuff guys! That really has a cleared up a lot issues. Just read all of your conversion thread Sonofsam. Lol at the number of IC choices you went through there! They just kept getting smaller Seems the MR2 one is a good bet though by the looks of things.

 

My mates got a VTs turbo done by DP which he used to run in 1/4mile drags. He managed a 12.88sec with it, which is fairly dam impressive to say the least! Having been in this car a number of times Im always amazed at how in town driving its not the complete nightmare you would expect it to be. Infact its quite civilised. Then get it out on a country road and wind it up and its a case of shifting gear fast enough and keeping it on the lefthandside of the road! I quite like the turbo for this on/off performance so this seems to definetly be the way to go.

 

I'm quite surprised that its not that popular conversion, with people still going after the Mi. (Although ive had the luxury of driving an Mi so I have to say they are very nice! :D) But this seems to be a cheaper conversion and just as hard/easy to do. Im guessing that you get very similar performance at the end of the day?

 

I'm guessing that the 1.9 box is the better one to opt for a turbo conversion?

[sonofsam 5]

original Turbo plastic outlet is very tight against the fuel filter

Air filter intake.

 

 

Yeap I was slighlty ill advised with regards to I/C size.

 

Most town driving I hardly use any boost at all, but then when you want to, it's always there straight away!

 

Never had any experience with an Mi Im afraid so I cant compare ( really should you know )But not being a massive fan of 16v's maybe someone's going to have to convert me lol

 

Torque steer is not an issue running standard boost BTW

 

Yes 1.9 box is ideal:D

 

Here is my project gallery for you to peruse http://projects.205gtidrivers.com/sonofsam

 

Glad I could help you:)

[jackherer 543]

To throw a real spanner in the works I happen to have a '95 Citroen Xantia 2.0 16v sat on my driveway not doing an awful lot and with rear arches rustier than Margaret Thatchers chasity belt. But with only 137bhp it didnt seem much of a starter?

 

If its a VSX there is a small chance it has a 155bhp engine, its worth posting a pic if you can...

[axnutty 10]

I'll get a pic up in the next couple of weeks. (new camera arriving) Alternativly if you tell me what to look for I will check it out.

Edited November 25, 2006 by axnutty

[jackherer 543]

a black rocker cover with 16v written on it is good, a silver rocker cover with a citroen logo is bad...

[Guest payne3400]

I can guide you through the wiring if need be when the time comes:D but if you want an insight check out Alastairh's recent post on wiring in 2.0L Mi. its basically the same as the S16 loom, ( Motroinc MP3.2 )just a few differnces with inertia switch etc..or there is a post by Joakim Enockson (sp?) were I guided him through it, but would'nt want to make it seem over complicated for you:)

 

No need to fabricate any mounts really for the alternator, can get a pic up of how I did mine if you like.

 

Yeah plenty of models have those speedo drives, although it is only used in conjuction with the speed sensor module to control fuelling on overun ( wich I dont have as my loom was butchered ) and my fuel consumption has been surprisingly good!

 

Original ECU position is in the engine bay.I have mine where the jack usually sits, but soon to be moved over by the battery ( not really looking forward to that job:( or into best place in the cabin.

 

Yes water pipes need modifying, nothing a few T-pieces and jubilee clips wont sort;)

 

Turbo compressor housing fouls on the brake servo and the original Turbo plastic outlet is very tight against the fuel filter, so I extended the lower mount fork by 15mm although I have heard you can get away without doing this, be interested to hear how?

 

Also the gear linkages need messing about with too

 

The xtra weight has made little to no difference on the handling side of things, guess it comes down to what

suspension your running too;)

Hi guys.

I didn't extend the bottom mount, I changed the servo to a 1.4 xs one which is slightly smaller in diameter, and moved fuel filter where jack should be next to ecu. This helped with the rerouting of fuel pipes away from turbo. Also I've heard that extending the bottom mount can affect oil pressure which isn't good in a turbo!!!!!

Can I ask which bottom hose you used sam, I seem to be struggling to get one that will do the job?

[sonofsam 5]

What bottom hose do you mean?

Edited November 27, 2006 by sonofsam

[Guest payne3400]

What bottom hose do you mean?

On the 2.0t. You have the block on the back, which has the pipes that cool the turbo, and the bottom hose that goes to the rad. There isn't enough clearance with the crank pulley if i use the 205 bottom hose, and the one I got with the engine has been hacked into right mess.

[sonofsam 5]

 

I didn't have any issue's there, all standard hose's ( in that region anyway) apart from that Blue venair one you can see. What pulley are you using?

Edited November 29, 2006 by sonofsam

[Guest payne3400]

 

I didn't have any issue's there, all standard hose's ( in that region anyway) apart from that Blue venair one you can see. What pulley are you using?

The original one from the 406 along with the alternator. Looks like you've swapped it for the 205 one? Also just been reading your previous post about the plumbing of the coolant hoses, and I have used all the standard hoses from the 406 and just shortened/modified them to fit matrix etc. This cancelled any confusion about turbo plumbing etc.

[sonofsam 5]

Yes that's a 205 pulley, it is alot slimmer than the 406 one, could be why you are experiencing contact?

 

My engine came bare of water pipes ( guess you had the whole vehicle ), so had to start a fresh, but glad you didn't have too many problems

 

Coolant hose's phase 2 is well under way

[Guest payne3400]

Yes that's a 205 pulley, it is alot slimmer than the 406 one, could be why you are experiencing contact?

 

My engine came bare of water pipes ( guess you had the whole vehicle ), so had to start a fresh, but glad you didn't have too many problems

 

Coolant hose's phase 2 is well under way

No didn't get the full vehicle, just think the guy wanted to clear out his garage and I seemed like a good candidate!

So are you using the 205 alternator and bottom hose then?

And whats stage 2 involve?

[sonofsam 5]

lol \ Yep 205 hose, pulley, alt. and belt.

 

You'll have to wait and see

[Guest payne3400]

lol \ Yep 205 hose, pulley, alt. and belt.

 

You'll have to wait and see

Have you got any pics of the brackets you used for alternator? Suspecting now that I might have the wrong ones of those aswell!

[sonofsam 5]

I wouldnt worry about it mate. I started off with the wrong engine mounts! ( 1.9 205 Top mount fits the block, but it looked well unsafe )

 

In the procees I threw out the original XU10 block mounting, but it was a blessing in disguise ( Thats the way I look at it anyway ) ( )

 

So of I went to the Breakers to see what I could find.Just look for the ones with the iron blocks and Top mounts with the big rubber bush, much like the 205 lower mount set up.

 

 

That mount is of 2.0 16 valve N/A 406 ( lots of them in there ) and will no doubt be on a few other models too.

The arm that attaches that to the body for this conversion came from a 306 XSI ( Ditto right above )

 

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b393/djs...am/DVC01372.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b393/djs...am/DVC01370.jpg

 

I cut off a big chunk ( above the alt.in that pic ) of that mount that was there for the PAS pump, and I had to do a big of jiggly with

the original bolt set up.The mount that swings and hold the Alt. from underneath is also a 205 item and bolted

straight to the engine block.