[project] Project 205 Xu13j4

[petert 587]

It's impossible to have a serious track or race car, that doubles as a street car. The two are just worlds apart if you take the competition bit seriously. Sounds good though! Is the block OK?

[Sandy 191]

Sounds great!

[smckeown 1]

And I must say the car is too harsh to drive for my liking

 

The steeringwheel is all over the place, probably much because of the differential (Quaife) that works really hard when I give it full throttle.

 

Not sure if I'm dissappointed or not really, but it's just too noisy and harsh to be driven long distances to do trackdays with it, have to be trailored and that's not an option really...

 

that's easy, be gently withthe throttle on the road, you do have a little monster there dont forget

 

It's impossible to have a serious track or race car, that doubles as a street car. The two are just worlds apart if you take the competition bit seriously. Sounds good though! Is the block OK?

 

Absolutely, I learnt this the hard and expensive way over the years, that's why I have a standard ish road car and a dedicated track/race car.

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

It's impossible to have a serious track or race car, that doubles as a street car. The two are just worlds apart if you take the competition bit seriously. Sounds good though! Is the block OK?

 

Yes, I see that this one is more like a full race-car than the last one I had. I still hope it will get a bit better when I can have the tracking properly setup and remove the spacers when I put the hi-spec brakes on instead of the Brembos.

 

The engine feels a bit peaky though, it starts pulling fully at 4000rpm and continues to pull hard up to 7500 where I've put the limiter at the moment.

 

The camshafts is set to 3.5 / 3.1mm @TDC by now, supposed to be 3.80 / 3.25, so adjusting them a little may get me some earlier "spool-up" (using turbo language here:)).

 

I'm starting to think that the block is ok, there is no bubbling in the expansion tank, there is no water in oil, or oil in water. There is no smoke of the car at idle, neither at WOT (apart from the normal exhaust), so I can't see what's happening. I think it may be due to a little plumbing issue, making the air in expansiontank travel into the coolant-system and stay there, hence coolant level in the tank will seem to rise. Watertemps is stable between 90-94 degrees when driving, read from the Emerald.

Edited May 4, 2007 by B1ack_Mi16

[petert 587]

I still hope it will get a bit better when I can have the tracking properly setup and remove the spacers when I put the hi-spec brakes on instead of the Brembos.

I'm puzzled by this. You currently have Brembos (with spacers) but don't like them? Do the tyres fit under the guards? Mine only just make it with 3 deg. neg. camber.

 

The engine feels a bit peaky though, it starts pulling fully at 4000rpm and continues to pull hard up to 7500 where I've put the limiter at the moment.

 

The camshafts is set to 3.5 / 3.1mm @TDC by now, supposed to be 3.80 / 3.25, so adjusting them a little may get me some earlier "spool-up" (using turbo language here:)).

 

These two are related. If you advance the inlet around further to 3.8mm, it will have more effective compression (inlet closing earlier), resulting in a broader power range with more low-mid range torque. Similar with the exhaust, retard it so it has more lift at TDC. The force of the explosion will act on the piston for longer. Of course all that means more overlap, but who cares on a race car?

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

I'm puzzled by this. You currently have Brembos (with spacers) but don't like them? Do the tyres fit under the guards? Mine only just make it with 3 deg. neg. camber.

 

I have the extra wide silly looking arches so tires/wheels fit under them no problem, think I could have used 40mm spacers and even then not be in trouble. Although when I remove the spacers it will look strange, so I think I need more normal arches then.

 

About not liking the brembos, it's only because of the spacers, as spacers never will go through mot over here, so I needed other brakes anyway. The brakes are working very very good indeed like they are now.

 

By removing the spacers I guess it'll not be as bad when driving over rough surfaces, as the arm generating turning moment about the balljoint axis will be shorter.

 

These two are related. If you advance the inlet around further to 3.8mm, it will have more effective compression (inlet closing earlier), resulting in a broader power range with more low-mid range torque. Similar with the exhaust, retard it so it has more lift at TDC. The force of the explosion will act on the piston for longer. Of course all that means more overlap, but who cares on a race car?

 

I see, I need to do a power-run soonish to have the thing street legal, the mot station only will allow me 180bhp so I need to reduce the engines power significantly. Guess I better leave the camshafts alone for now and put some restriction under the throttlepedal, and retard ignition a bit more.

[Rob Thomson 6]

Not sure if I'm dissappointed or not really, but it's just too noisy and harsh to be driven long distances to do trackdays with it, have to be trailored and that's not an option really...

In terms of the noise, get yourself a decent intercom and headsets (ie. the things that WRC crews use on road sections).

 

My Peltors (which are the ones you want) are amazing things, and transform the rally car from something that's horrific to drive on the road to something that's actually quite enjoyable. With a bit of soldering you could even plug your iPod into them...

 

They're expensive but well worth the investment.

 

The car looks truly awesome!

[Robsbc 0 1 Cars]

90-92 seems quite high...

 

My Emerald reads 72 degrees water temp on my Mi16 although I am running a 72 degree thermostat.

 

Revla also has the same 72 degrees stats but runs a water cooled oil cooler and his water temp reads 82 degrees on his Emerald.

Edited May 4, 2007 by Robsbc

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

90-92 seems quite high...

 

My Emerald reads 72 degrees water temp on my Mi16 although I am running a 72 degree thermostat.

 

Revla also has the same 72 degrees stats but runs a water cooled oil cooler and his water temp reads 82 degrees on his Emerald.

 

Ok, I set the fan in the Emerald software to kick in at 94 and to stop at 90, so I guess that's why my temps are like they are.

 

I'm running the 88c termostat btw.

 

Any reason why you're running that cold termostats?

[Robsbc 0 1 Cars]

Was on suggestion by Skip Brown Cars...They run all their competition cars and fast road conversions with the lower stats. I've forgotten the reason why it was suggested.

Edited May 6, 2007 by Robsbc

[Paintguy 0]

Wow!

 

I've just read this topic through from the start, and it looks like I've been missing out. There's some quality work going into this, and the colour scheme looks ace

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

Wow!

 

I've just read this topic through from the start, and it looks like I've been missing out. There's some quality work going into this, and the colour scheme looks ace

 

Thanks for that, I've relaly learned my lesson during this project, about why bodywork is expensive when you're paying others to do it for you!

 

Robsc: Maybe the colder thermostat is just to try to keep bay temperatures little lower?

[Robsbc 0 1 Cars]

No definitely wasn't to do with engine bay temps...

 

I see SBD who specialises in Vauxhalls also sell a 70 degree thermostat for their high performance engines...

 

I do know my engine was mapped @ 8 degrees on Emerald rollers whereas Revla's was mapped @ 20 degrees. The difference being I've got a custom made alloy radiator which is 4 inches shorter than original. Revla has just dropped his standard rad by same amount.

 

Dave did have to stop mapping on a few occasions when he was doing Revla's car as the coolant was getting very hot, I didn't seem to have that issue...

 

Rob

[PumaRacing 2]

Thanks for that, I've relaly learned my lesson during this project, about why bodywork is expensive when you're paying others to do it for you!

 

Robsc: Maybe the colder thermostat is just to try to keep bay temperatures little lower?

 

For best power and suppression of detonation you want low coolant temperature. For best power you want high oil temperature for reduced friction. Obviously not too low or too high on either. For good fuel atomisation and fuel efficiency you want high coolant temperature so OE road cars run thermostats at about 88C. Competition cars would want 80C or even a bit less. Oil at about 90-100C.

 

A good example from 50 years ago is the combined cast iron inlet/exhaust manifold on the A series Mini engine. That was done to heat the inlet manifold, ensure fast warm up so the choke could come off quickly and to atomise the fuel. However it sucked from the power point of view and fitting a separate exhaust manifold and aluminium inlet manifold from the MG Metro was an easy way to gain 5 bhp or so.

 

I'm sorry you're finding the car a bit raucous but it's a good lesson in compromises. OE manufacturers are very good at getting that right even in really sporty models but I'm afraid you can't have ultimate speed and lowest weight as well as tractability, good sound insulation and driving comfort. As you get older your priorities swing towards the latter. I'd like my Focus to be quicker but I also like the central locking, comfy ride, tractable engine, electric windows.

 

You might find that adding a few pounds with carpets and a stereo and losing a few bhp with a nice quiet exhaust and mild cams will give you something you can live with better on a daily basis.

 

There are some things you can modify without much compromise and some things you can't. BV heads if properly done with small ports, wide valve seats and high gas speed have no real downside. Sure you can get a bit more flow with big ports and throats and narrow valve seats but you won't like what happens to low rpm torque, combustion chamber temperature and detonation or valve seat life.

 

As long as you pay attention to noise you can usually find power without loss of torque from better flowing inlet and exhaust systems. The biggest compromise and the one thing that people get wrong as often as they get right is cams and that's why one of the first things I wrote on the website many years ago in the general tuning article was this.

 

"When in doubt over a choice between cams always go for the milder of the ones under consideration. I rarely find anyone disappointed after choosing a mild cam but plenty of people have come to regret fitting too hot a cam in the quest for power and losing too much low rpm driveability. Because cams for a given engine are usually the same price regardless of profile, the temptation to be greedy in the choice of duration is always there."

 

The better the head the less cam you need anyway and the hotter a given cam will behave. If you want to retain any trace of road manners then somewhere in the mid 230 degrees at 1mm lift is where you want to be for a BV 16v engine.

[Robsbc 0 1 Cars]

For best power and suppression of detonation you want low coolant temperature.

 

Thanks for answering the question for Black Mi16, if I recall that is what SBC had said as well.

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

Thanks for answering the question for Black Mi16, if I recall that is what SBC had said as well.

 

I might be getting a colder thermostat then

 

Took out the sparkplugs today and they seem to be in good nick and have the right color.

 

 

The TB's are only syncronized by me sucking and blowing through them while they still wasn't put on the engine, and I guess there's no need for furhter balancing as long as it idles nicely and plugs seem to have even color?

 

BTW, I've had it at 7500rpm now, so it seem like the 88mm bore might prove itself to coope with the forces involved.

[Sandy 191]

On the side issue subject of a mentalist engine being difficult to live with....

 

Using a VTEC engine has brought the best of both worlds. During normal driving i'm finding it smoother and less harsh than any Peugeot engine can aspire to be, 30-35mpg is easily achievable, driveability and tractability are superb and when I want it, I have the VTEC "zone" (god I sound like a Chav!) with a huge lump of grunt from 5-8000 rpm and a noise to die for. Let alone the gearbox, which despite being a little short geared (can be remedied), the shift is in another league to even the healthiest BE and they tend (famous last words) to be bullet proof.

 

On suspension compromise, the "challenge" Bilstein dampers I'm using aren't as harsh as many standard VAG sport models are and with the right spring choice maintain enough body control and grip for all but the most severe driving. My Mum's old A3 (2001) for example seemed softer initially, but ruts crashed through it and road noise was high given how heavily insulated it was, I often felt car sick driving it too.

 

Manufacturers compromises won't suit all tastes and it is IMO often possible to find your own improved compromise without making irritating sacrifices. I certainly couldn't tolerate the detached and synthetic feel of most modern cars now. I agree with DB that the old shape Focus is an excellent blend, but the new one I felt gives over to the general trend.

[petert 587]

Mark Boxsell dropped by the other night. You probably don't who that is, but he's one of the original co-inventors of Haltech (pre '90), the "M" in M&W Ignitions, runs this as a hobby, http://www.gtpumps.com.au/, and more recently has been working for Bishops developing a new F1 engine (until the rest found out so they changed the rules). So he's an extremely bright boy! Anyway, he's also been helping out one of the local 2L Improved Production cars which is running a VTEC. It puts out a comfortable 205hp at the wheels at 8200!

[Sandy 191]

Nice!

[edthedrummer 0]

Wow that looks really good. Big fan of the colour. Really like this project.

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

Just thought I would update this thread too with the engine results.

 

Powercurve and AFR after mapping session. As you can see the AFR need sorting out, K3 upgrade needed from Emerald before it can be done properly though.

 

 

Also Hilgert made a little youtube movie with the car on the rollers etc.

Spec is a little wrong as it's a 2.3 and not 2.4 litre

 

Edit: Forgot the URL

Edited June 24, 2007 by B1ack_Mi16

[jackherer 543]

250BHP @ wheels?

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

250BHP @ wheels?

 

Apparently, but the dyno must be over reading a bit.

But as "concluded" in the other post about the powercurves 270bhp is likely to be correct engine power.

 

The thing wheelspins in 4'th gear (Mi16 gearbox) with roadtyres on dry road.

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

Just need to add how stable the car became after I had the wheel alignement (TOE) settings dialled in yesterday.

It was completely transformed from an uncontrollable monster till something that actually feels very stable and easy to drive!!

[cybernck 402 1 Cars]

what are your old and new TOE settings then?