Head Flow Question. Am I Thinking Logical?

[PsychoSimon 0]

Hi all.

i have a 406 16v engine, which is the xu10j4r. I also have a mw mini eaton supercharger.

 

I am going to supercharge this engine, and fit it into my gti as i now have a very good runaround/tow vehicleo be able to ferry my gti around.

My question is, rather than spend on head gaskets etc to replace the head with my spare mi16 head, would it make more sense to just fit the xu10j4r complte with the smaller ported head, and then if it works and i want some more power swap over to the mi16 head?

 

Does this sound logical? i'm not after stupid power, 190bhp would be ample. I am going to be running standard CR and keeping the boost at sensible levels.

 

what do you guys think?

[welshpug 1,657]

IIRC its identical to the 10J4RS bar the fanimolds and cams so it flows VERY well, more than an Mi16 anyway! and I dont think the head will fit enyway :?

Edited November 12, 2006 by welshpug

[Sandy 191]

The regular XU10J4 head isn't as well finished or as large on the inlet ports as the XU10J4RS, but it's not as restricted as the XU7J4 either, which it's often grouped with in discussions. Do it!

[PsychoSimon 0]

the mi16 head does fit on with diesel head bolts etc. the ports do definately look very much the same as the mi16 ones, i just wondered about valve sizes. looks like i will be trying it anyway. the exhaust fanimold looks cack though and very restrictive so that will have to be changed. is the gti6/s16 one a good upgrade? would this apply to cams also?

sounds like i could have wasted a bit of money there!! means i can use the standard coilpacks as well now instead of ford pap lol

[welshpug 1,657]

use the GTi6 fanimold, the S16 one doesn't match the ports or the studs, as for the cams I'd imagine the standard ones would be a good place to start as they have less overlap, or is that for turbo engines?

[PsychoSimon 0]

Just had a look at a gti6 exhaust fanimold on ebay and they look if thats a standard one. much the same as the 309gti16 ones i've seen. certainly a lot better than the cast iron jobbie my engine is wearing at the moment.

 

Stay tuned for a "i've blown all four pistons and my crank out of the bottom of my engine" type thread lol.

 

Cheers for your help, this should turn out to be fun

[welshpug 1,657]

indeed it is that kinda thing, I wish the Mi16 had them! theyre also stainless steel

 

good point of reference would be the thread on the gti6 site that details the 400bhp gti6

[PsychoSimon 0]

i shall have a look for that now mate. it think 400bhp might be beyond the reach of my budget though lol

[James_R 3]

Having just pulled a XU10R apart, it looks ideal for a low blow set up. It has pistons with a fairly deep bowl in them, so the CR is lower to start off with. As said the std cams are mild, but if you're ramming the air in that's not such a bad thing. The exhust manifold looks ok to me, but if you can get a GTi-6 one cheap then go for it. And a 6 inlet woudl be handy too, unless you are planning to hack up an Mi one or similar for the blow to go straight on to.

 

Get some pics up and keep us updated.

[oli-pug 6 2 Cars]

look forward to seeing your progress on this! should be an interesting build, good luck and keep us updated

[PsychoSimon 0]

Have just secured myself a gti6 exhaust manifold from mfield for what i think to be a bargain price so it's looking good.

Inlet manifold will be shortened mi16 with a round throttle body on it so it's easier to plumb into pipework etc as i plan to run an intercooler.

 

I am looking to run around 7/8psi does this sound right? would i get away with more with a big enough intercooler?

Pulleys etc will not be a problem as i work for the mod and we have a very well equipped machine shop so it's all good lol.

 

Much photos will be taken as and when i do stuff the engine is ready to be painted and put in at the minute, then its to work with mounting supercharger etc.

 

I'm getting all excited!!! lol

[welshpug 1,657]

sounds good so far, as long as its well managed 7 psi shouldnt be a problem, especially when provided by a supercharger as the delivery is usually very linear.

 

running a bigger intercooler with the same amount of boost will increase the efficiency of the engine, the intake charge being more dense thus allowing more fuel to be used, and also preventing the dangerously lean running conditions that can occur when the intake temps rise

 

so put as big a cooler as you can on there!

[PsychoSimon 0]

That's the plan. maybe a cossie one or will i need bigger?

 

Will be managed by a lumenition ecu or something similar and properly set up by somebdy who knows what they are doing.

 

will it need a blow off valve? if it does then do you think you can get them that sound like a wastgate chattering or do i have to have the chavvy "TSHHHHHH" because that really gets on my t*ts lol

[sonofsam 5]

Just run a recirculating dump valve if your going for 1psi and beyond.

[welshpug 1,657]

you want one that sounds like a WRC car, which IIRC are recirculating ones.

[sonofsam 5]

Will it even need a DV being a Supercharged motor?

 

Look forward to the pics BTW:D

[rich_gti6 0]

Sounds like a good project...

 

The cylinder head flowing well enough will be the least of your worries. If its anything like the XU10J4RS head anyway. I got very good power gains versus boost on my engine, which has a completely standard XU10J4RS head/cams.

 

IMO an Eaton (Roots/Positive Displacement) supercharger isn't the best for your application.. It will give good low end boost, but boost will tail off at the top end whilst your engine is still crying out for more air.

 

A Centrifugal supercharger is best for any naturally revvy engine, as boost increases with the square of RPM.

 

Having said that, i'm not sure if the XU10J4R is a revvy as the RS version.

 

Mine is the supercharged GTi-6 found on 306gti6.com BTW.

[welshpug 1,657]

i think the slightly lower revviness compared with the RS is purely down to a lower comp ratio and lazier cams, and not so good inlet ports, Not to say thatll be the case when it has a blower on it though!

 

as for the dump valve, it's not essential, as some Chargers have an integrated bypass circuit.

[PsychoSimon 0]

i have an xu10j4r in my 406 runaround and it kind of runs out of puff at 5500rpm, and sounds painful near the rev limit.

I'm not really worried about where the power is to be fair, as i can adjust my driving style/gear raios to suit if it becomes a problem, i just want to build it because i can lol.

 

I have had a drive in a bmw mini cooper s and i liked the delivery of power in that

 

I also don't have a bypass system on my charger, it's just the charger. I need to fabricate the inlet/outlet systems for it so i guess i'll be looking for a recirc. dump valve then.

 

Rich_gti6 i'm off to see if i can find your car now... be prapared for questions lol.

When i make some progress it will be photos-a-plenty trust me

[PsychoSimon 0]

Rich my hat comes off to you!!!!! jesus!!

I've just read all of this thread: http://www.306gti6.com/forum/showthread.ph...9678&page=1

and i'm in awe!! I think i would be extatic from 220bhp. but 363bhp as it was at one point i think i rea, that must have been insane!!!

right now for the questions lol.

I notice you're running a socketed ecu. how easy is it to get this done? is it just a case of getting a socket for the eeprom soldered in place so that the rom can be taken out easily?

How much did it cost you to get mapped? and how good is the map?

 

Looks very tight in your engine bay mate. i read that you have the fans on all the time? does the car run very hot then?

Please excuse my questions, tell me to shut up if you want lol

Regards,

Simon

[rich_gti6 0]

The socketed ECU was done by Wayne Schofiled (AKA Chip Wizzards); I wouldn't either consider anyone else for this job.

 

He knows more about engine management systems then any other mapper im aware of; his knwledge is mind blowing. He did a superb job of mapping my car.. It drives smoother than a standard car, excellent economy, and retained all factory OBDII diagnostics etc.

 

You need to design the system around the ECU your going to use though; particular attention needs to be given to MAP sensor placement.

 

Mapping will cost £4-500.

 

As for the fans they are on most of the time.. It got hot in the summer, but this time of year its not a problem. Keeps the intercooler nice and cold too..

 

Engine bay is less cramped than a standard GTi-6, believe it or not!

 

[PsychoSimon 0]

That's one tidy install mate.

I have heard of chipwizards before and have heard only good things about him.

I presume he has an enormous waiting list though? Although for 500 quid the wait would be worth the saving of money by say buying an omex/emerald ecu and getting that mapped.

 

The injection system i have is motronic 5.1.1 is this the same as a gti-6 just with a different map? Would I be better off finding a gti6 management system or something else (for example magnetti marelli 8p or motronic 3.1) over the 135bhp system?

Bet you have fun in the wet with that beast lol