[engine_work] Mad's - Supercharged Pug Project

[Banjo 1]

Yes eatons are sealed units and the red bunge is a breather. also Kitsune eatons are completely different to G ladder chargers, do a google search, G's sound better imo

Ben

[madspikes 41 1 Cars]

Progress is slow... Like all these things lots of hours and little progress showing! I have changed the clutch and flywheel for Mi16 items during a non rainny afternoon, but they have been a few and far between lately! Oh and finished removing the power steering ram and pipes, but left the PAS rack in place. I liked the PAS, but there is just no room for it any more.

 

Made same backwards progress! We decided that the belt would run too close to its self, and the fact that the our tensioner setup wouldnt actually fit in the car, forced us into a rethink! Now planning on using a cam belt item, not sure if its too thin, its 2mm wider than the belt... Any ideas?

 

This kinda the idea at the moment.

 

The ECU loom has been removed, what a mission. Half the dash needed to come out!

 

The interia, is in a sad state at the moment!

 

The ECU loom extracted from the car.

 

The rev counter has been modifed (see post) to work with the megasquirt. Its just waiting for the loom and dash to go back in.

 

Mad.

[Kitsune 0]

Yes eatons are sealed units and the red bunge is a breather. also Kitsune eatons are completely different to G ladder chargers, do a google search, G's sound better imo

Ben

 

Yeah your right mate. Done a little search and see the Eatons are self contained (but does the oil need to be changed in the Eaton? Wasn't sure about that), where as the G-Lader runs oil from the block via two small pipes (hence the reliability issues with the Lader).

 

I wasn't impressed with the lack of noise from the MCS charger, whereas the Lader does make a lovely noise. I'm currently waiting for the return of my charger. It's in for a full rebuild with a port and polish (S4), so with the small mods combined already, I will see a very healthy BHP/Torque figure. Dont know what it will sound like then, but I know you can remove the boost return pipe for more noise if you are that way inclined.

[Banjo 1]

You mean you havnt done the boost return delete?!? wow do that straight away, sounds sooo good, also s4 chargers sound the best from the ones i've heard, I've got a 1.8t mk2 we should meet up some time when mines mapped.

Ben

[cyman 1 1 Cars]

your project is looking good.

have you got any more pics of the s/c brackets/supports.

also, how about a manual tensioner rather than a auto one.

i know they can be a pain to fit, and also think about if you have to change a belt when it's in the car !!!

what width belt are you going to use & s/c rpm ? boost ?

regards.

[madspikes 41 1 Cars]

your project is looking good.

have you got any more pics of the s/c brackets/supports.

also, how about a manual tensioner rather than a auto one.

i know they can be a pain to fit, and also think about if you have to change a belt when it's in the car !!!

what width belt are you going to use & s/c rpm ? boost ?

regards.

 

Im using the cam belt tensioner, but as a manual device. I'm working the exact position at the moment, so I slacken it off to change the belt, but tight enough to stop the belt slipping.

 

The eaton 45 has a couple of oil drain plugs one at either end.

 

By all acounts a toothed belt on a SC makes a fantastic noise!

 

Mad.

[cyman 1 1 Cars]

yes the toothed belt has a great sound, but the main function is for reliable grip on the pulleys.

also reqiures less tension than the poly V belts.

of course you have to change the pulleys for toothed ones, but that's not difficult.

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

Yeah your right mate. Done a little search and see the Eatons are self contained (but does the oil need to be changed in the Eaton? Wasn't sure about that)

 

i bought a book the other day with some info about eatons and it rekons theyre good for 100k without changeing the oil.

 

Could someone enlighten me on a few things about supercharging because i'm strugling to find much info

 

1; where do you take vaccum from for the brakes, is it not blowin rather than sucking???

 

2; if you position the throttle body before the charger do you need some kind of blow off valve or would it work ok without.

cheers for any advice, al

[cyman 1 1 Cars]

i can't comment on the oil life of enclosed type s/c's.

as regard to the brake servo, you take a 8mm bore ( approx ) from the plenum chamber and put a oneway check valve in line. still have it so that under depression ( vacuum ) the brake servo is active.

under normal driving conditions this works fine, ( no heel & toe )

 

as far as throttle location, iv'e always put mine before the s/c, and no bypass.

this can sometimes cause erratic idle,

but you can sometimes M.A.P this out or raise the idle a bit .

also, with no bypass the engine will still be in vacuum at idle, as soon as you blip the throttle you will get instant boost.

 

supercharge conversions need a lot of thought before you go steaming into the project.

remember, when selecting your supercharger you get what you pay for !!!!!

[Kitsune 0]

You mean you havnt done the boost return delete?!? wow do that straight away, sounds sooo good, also s4 chargers sound the best from the ones i've heard, I've got a 1.8t mk2 we should meet up some time when mines mapped.

Ben

 

Not yet, I want to weigh up the pros and cons of doing it first (if there are any) and I also need to do the boost mod which stops the boost dropping off as it does, although obviously I dont know loads about this mod either, it was mentioned to me by The Phirm. I've also heard that it is massively loud, so let me see how load the S4 charger is on its own first!

 

I've seen a few Mk2 20VT's for sale (as well as few Mk1 20VT's!). So tempting to PX the G60, but the power/torque is silly going through the front wheels. I know what I'm expecting with the Mk1 conversion and I think it will be suitably quick enough, so I think I'll stay with the Lader for the time being.

 

I see you're pretty local so yeah, we'll have to meet up when my project is done (awaiting the arrival of the charger and a few other goodies).

 

Toothed belts. I've heard these are loads better as they keep a tighter grip on the pulley. The only person I've seen actually use one though didn't have it for long as it disintergrated. He believes it was his fault, but how can you go wrong fitting a belt? You need to change to a toothed pulley as well.

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

cheers for that cyman.

 

 

supercharge conversions need a lot of thought before you go steaming into the project.

remember, when selecting your supercharger you get what you pay for !!!!!

 

are you implying that £100 m45s are no good??? al

[cyman 1 1 Cars]

all i am saying is fully investigate the reqiurements you need, then select the best s/c for the conversion in mind.

eg, engine size ( cc )

boost reqiurement

fitment

and cost.

ect, ect,

[madspikes 41 1 Cars]

Behold.....

 

 

 

 

The supercharged pug is coming togther!

 

Since these pictures were taken (last weekend), I have sourced a non dizzy thermostat housing and coil pack (£5 bargin or what). An extra rad for the charge cooler, and a oil stat.

 

Currently working out the electrics and where to put the remote oil filter!

 

Mad.

 

PS. Ratchet spanners rock!

[Doof 11]

Looking good mad. Is that just a standard alternator mounted higher up?

 

Can't wait to see this running, gonna be really interesting seeing power / torque figures.

[sonofsam 5]

That looks to be shaping up lovely Mad. Good work and nice to see some pictures

 

Did you use the pulley I sold you in the end?

[madspikes 41 1 Cars]

Did you use the pulley I sold you in the end?

 

Yep, I'm using that pulley, she fits perfect! Nice 1:2 ratio of crank : charger

 

Well there havent been many pictures because not alots been going on! Just alot of head scratching! Currently waiting for a number of things to be finished off, like the charge cooler mods.

 

The predictions say we should get about 170 bhp ish depending on the state of the engine! I have a plot of the predicted figures somewhere.... but cant find it currently!

 

The alternator is off a 306 as it has the right pulley.

 

Mad.

[madspikes 41 1 Cars]

I've been working on the project for a while now, so here's a quick review of the work done so far:

 

 

Update 1.

 

The supercharger project has been moving on at a slow pace, however things are starting to come together and I thought it was about time I gave a little update on progress. But first some background.

 

The idea came about after a friend and I sat about discussing our latest track day over a few beers. The problem was that the car handled well, but was just too slow on the straights - what was needed was more power! The old standard option of a Mi16 was installed, but that was just too simple! After a quick search on ebay, it was decided that the old eaton 45 superchargers off the mini cooper were dirt cheap, and we should fit one for more power. A couple of days later the charger arrived on my desk at work, and no one could believe exactly what I was planning! So after a couple more months of tooling around in the 205, it was finally taken off the road in September 2006 to have the charger fitted. Various bits and pieces were source for my friend and enemy ebay, and from the good people at 205gtidrivers.com

 

The first thing to be done was to remove all the unwanted bits from the engine bay that we didnt want. So out came the air flow meter, air box, jack, battery, inlet manifold, coil, radiator, PAS pump, alternator and distributor. All this left a very empty engine bay!

 

Pictures can be found at... This will be updated very soon.

 

Mad.

[madspikes 41 1 Cars]

Update 2.

 

Time to offer up the charger - good news, it fit (well, if a smaller starter motor can be sourced!) After a quick poke around in the shed, voila - a manky looking small starter motor! With the small start motor in place the charger would fit if I could remove the cooper water pump drive. After a quick discussion with a guy thats fitting an e45 to a zetec, I determined this was possible and so was trimming the casing. After these modifications the charger would fitted sweetly, between the starter motor and a 406 6 rib pulley. With this cabled tied in place, time to work out where to put the alternator (a 306 item). After a bit of fiddling around, this fitted sweetly above the charger and yes - the bonnet shuts! Tidy!

 

With winter drawing in, working on the car out on the drive didnt appeal, so I sourced a 1.6 engine for the 205 forum for £20! Well, it also cost me a shopping trip to Southampton with the wife to pick it up, which cost more that the engine itself! With the engine setup in the garage, all was good and time to start fabricating the brackets to hold the charger in place. In the couple of months leading up to this project, work moved sites and as a result chucked out a lot of stuff, namely nice bits of unused steel which somehow found its way into my garage! After a couple of days of cutting and welding I had the MK1 bracket. I wasnt totally happy with it, but I though it was good for a prototype. My mate had other ideas! He saw it, said it was useless, and like true British engineers we downed tools and discussed the issue over a cup of tea and a piece of cake! Then followed another day of cutting and welding, resulted in the basics of a supercharger mounting bracket we were both happy with. Over the following weeks I tweaked the design to allow for the mounting of the alternator and belt tensioner, which is still a point of concern.

 

Pictures can be found here... - Updated soon...

 

Mad.

[madspikes 41 1 Cars]

Update 3.

 

Once happy with the mounting bracket, we moved on to the inlet manifold and charger outlet. The initial idea was to mount the charge cooler (more about this later) directly above the charger and directly in front of the inlet ports. This would have given a nice really short path between the charger and the inlet for good throttle response (something my mate kept on about), but it just didnt package at all well.

 

So, after another cuppa the idea was born to place the charge cooler above the exhaust manifold / back of the cylinder head and run the outlet of the charger through the middle of the oe inlet manifold to it. The use of the oe inlet manifold would make things simpler, the standard throttle would just bolt on to it, and the inlet would bolt straight to the head - sorted. Also the standard fuel regulator, injector rail and injectors could be use, saving loads of work and time. On the down side it fowled the charger, so we chopped an inch or so off the bottom and got a very nice chap to weld it back up! While this was going on I got on with fabricating a strange funnel shape to mate the outlet of the supercharger to the charge cooler pipe work. After about four prototypes made out of 1mm sheet steel, I ended up with a shape I was happy with. I then welded this onto a laser cut plate (from ebay) that mates the charger to a 60mm tube. I then hollowed the plate out so that it matched the shape of the funnel exactly, filling in with weld and smoothing where required. Then with the funnel bolted to the charger, it was time to try and fit the beginnings of the system together. With the charger mounted on the bracket, the funnel nicely lined up with the gap between ports 2 & 3 in the inlet manifold where a 60mm tube could be dropped down for it to mate with. At this point we to turned our attention to the charger cooler, as this would need to connect up with that 60mm tube.

 

Mad

[madspikes 41 1 Cars]

Update 4. - And theres more!

 

From quite early on in the project it was decided that we were going to water cool the charger as apposed to just cool straight to air, intercooler style. The reasoning behind this was three fold: one, it would lead to a shorter charger to inlet path, thus better throttle response (yeah yeah!) and secondly we had one knocking around, as you do. Thirdly it had the wording supercharged cast into it! If you ask my mate why we used it, it was because of the first, and if you ask me it was the second and third reasons. However, sadly, the lettering is upside down, which is a shame.

 

The cooler in question I believe came from a Jag (XKR?) of some type, so if its good enough for them its definitely good enough for me. The down side of using this charge cooler was that it would need some modification, and being water cooled I would need to find space to fit another radiator in the already over crowed engine bay. Using various cable ties (mans best friend along with duck tape) and bits of wood a good position for the cooler was found. At this point we took various pictures and measurements so that the cooler could be passed on to Mr Tig (Like Mr T, but different, no gold just a welder!), to be modified.

 

Skipping on a few weeks, the charger cooler returned modified as asked. The side that used to bolt straight on to the cylinder head was now sporting a 70mm tube stub, which is far more useful than the old headers! During the modifications a couple of extra mounting brackets we tacked on as well. Using the mounts the OE air box use, the cooler was mounted using some rubber exhaust mounts that came from a Renault 5 (more French parts!). There was no real reason for using these other than they looked about the right size in the shop. The cooler was a little floppy at this point so we added a couple of little extra supports that came back to the cylinder head. Jobs a gooden - well, well see when its filled with water!

 

View picture on my newly updated website.

 

Anyone read all of it? What do you think.....?

 

Mad

Edited August 4, 2007 by madspikes

[Bally 4]

You sure that plumbing is right.

Dont you go from the throttle to the charge to the inercooler to the intake? The pics may have me confused.

[Sandy 191]

What management?

[madspikes 41 1 Cars]

You can go either way, depending if you use a re-circ valve or not.

 

I'm going

Air filter -> Charger -> Charge Cooler -> Re-Circ Valve -> Throttle -> inlet -> cylinder head

 

The link works fine for me, there might be an issue with some of the anti pop-up software that some people are running.

 

 

I'm running the megasquirt I on a v3.0 board, driving a 405 coil pack.

 

 

Mad

Edited August 5, 2007 by madspikes

[IanG Dorset 0]

Sounds cool!

Is this going to be a track car only then?

[madspikes 41 1 Cars]

The car is going to both track and road car, still not worked out where it fits into the fleet.

 

The car will be a 1992 205 GTi 1.9 8v with:

 

eaton 45 mini supercharger

Jag water cooled charge cooler,

Extra bike rad for charge cooler,

Megasquirt I ECU,

405 wasted spark coil packs,

Mi flywheel, clutch and crank sensor,

Aston Martin (ok ford) fuel injectors,

Mocal oil state,

New oil cooler,

Remote oil filter

 

Its also going to have a electronic speed sensor and knock sensor connected directly into the ECU. The car will also have 4 thermocouples connected to the exhaust manifold to monitor exhaust gas temp.

 

The plan is to run 0.5 bar, and kick out 160bhp - 180bhp. Thats the plan.

 

 

Update 5.

 

Anyway, while the cooler was being modified I got on sourcing and fitting the extra rad. Again my friend ebay supplied me with a bike rad (more of a moped really, its off a 125cc) that fitted perfectly in the spare cooling fan hole in the gti cowling, with the oil cooler removed. Im well chuffed with this rad, should work really well and pick up nice cool air from the vents below the bumper. The OE oil cooler broke during removal, so a newer slimmer version was sourced (from ebay!) to fit just above the extra rad. Its about 20% smaller than the standard version, but most people comment that the OE version is over kill, so we shall see. Theres also an oil stat to go in as well, which should stop any over cooling of the oil.