Engine Rebuild Choices

[bales 1]

Alright,

 

As I have mentioned on other threads I have been thinking of doing a turbo conversion on my 8v for a while now, as I only just finished uni over summer I havent had much money so couldn't really decide on much. However I have know got a job! which is lets say, adequately salaried compared to what I was expecting and I have also managed to secure my old car back off my brother which means I have two cars and can take my 205 off the road over winter to refurbish. Which is exactly what I have always wanted to do!!

 

Anyway my main issue is the engine really and what to do, and more importantly what I want out of it in terms of driveability and power.

 

I have decided that I will use it as a fast road second car and for trackdays mainly (hillclimbing is still a possibility but it limits my engine options too much really)

 

I have decided on a £2k max limit for the engine and would ideally like 180+bhp as I am looking for a decent performance hike.

 

The options seem to stem down to:

 

- Turbo my existing 8v (DP kit is £1300 and with everything such as mapping and plumbing would be too expensive). So I am thinking of 205 parts manifold, turbo ideally second hand but this is a bit of a risk(unless anyone is selling one?!) kms ecu, custom exhaust (what downpipe do you use with the 205parts manifold?), then buy a 2wd cossy intercooler and make up plumbing myself, bigger injectors, dished pistons and/or decomp plate.

 

My main problem with this option is that the above list could be got for well under 2k but I would probably have to rebuild me engine aswell which isnt cheap as it has done 125k - doesnt smoke though

 

- XU10 option, get a existing engine with everything on for £300-500 (is this fair?) then add 205 parts manifold and get kms ecu and larger injectors and have this engine remapped to run extra boost so I could get past the original 150bhp

 

This option sounds ok but would the xu10 engines need rebuilding anyway as they wil be high mileage too?

 

-mi16, this was what I orignally wanted to do however turbo engines have recently interested me due to their torque and the noises they make

 

Can you buy and mi16 and rebuild it "and" then tune it to around the 180 bhp mark for approx my budget? The engines are getting on a bit know and I dont really want to start tuning a flagging engine just to have it blow up 3 months later. Throttle bodies are still expensive as is mapping so this would be in the region of £1k just for this. Would a decent rebuilt mi with inlet cam and carbs or tb's be up there for power?

 

Peoples opinions would be greatly appreciated on this, cheers.

 

Alex

[welshpug 1,657]

sod Mi16, GTi6 on bodies/ carbs will do 180 easily.

[sonofsam 5]

XU10 option, get a existing engine with everything on for £300-500 (is this fair?) then add 205 parts manifold and get kms ecu and larger injectors and have this engine remapped to run extra boost so I could get past the original 150bhp

 

Yeh Fair price, However you will need another Turbo to go with your 205parts manifold ( has Paul got any left?) as the T25 thats on there as Stock has a non standard flange and can only be used with the 406 manifold!No need for KMS as a remap chip from Boeseturbo will cost alot less:DLarger injectors are also not

needed for 180hp anything over, then yes.

 

My engine came with unknown mileage, So I was sceptical about a rebuild.Runs great so no real need at the moment:)of course you can still pick up fairly low mileage ones though.

 

I think im right in saying said 205 parts Mani should mate with stock exhaust system?you may want to enlarge the bore slightly though;)Teknopug will know for sure.

 

Sam.

[Guest rick03054]

It will mate up to the standard downpipe, well the exhaust outlet on the turbo will anyway.

 

You do need to get a wider exhaust 2.75" with no centre box is ideal IIRC.

[Daxed 7]

Low mileage GTI-6 - no rebuild, just a new timing belt, water pump and tensioners.

 

Try is standard and see what you think of the ummpphhh. Plenty of money left over if you feel it still needs more.

[damien 22 1 Cars]

another vote here for the gti6 lump, if you want abit more power get some cams, the gti6 loves cams

[bales 1]

Cheer's for your replies so far, to be honest a gti-6 conversion is something I haven't considered I always assumed they would be expensive considering they are relatively new compared to an mi. They are 167bhp standard I think which is a fair bit already and I guess they are as tuneable as a mi16 in terms of cams and tb's/carbs etc...hmmm sounds good.

 

How much do they tend to go for for a good engine and are there any specific problems with the install?

 

This sounds promising, thanks for bringing this idea up:)

[welshpug 1,657]

do a quick search on fleabay, theres a few on there from about £300.

 

specific problems? only the usual ones that come with putting a 16v engine into a 205!

 

e.g wiring (run the gti6 loom or an aftermarket one)

 

exhaust fanimold clearance issues (dont know on this one actually)

 

no need for short boxes as theres plenty of torque, and swapping a cam or two will get you a fair few more geegees if chosen carefully (fitting a cat-less exhaust and cone filter will liberate a few)

[niklas 1]

sod Mi16, GTi6 on bodies/ carbs will do 180 easily.

 

EW10J4S does that out of the box

[welshpug 1,657]

yes, but it wont fit into a right hand drive 205 without a hell of a lot of work, and the wiring's another problem altogether!

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

EW10J4S does that out of the box

 

 

That engine is tits out at 180NHP though, further tuning leads to premature internal component failure...ie: Rod throwing antics. The release of the gti180 was delayed as they couldnt make the internals strong engouhg to last the test of time in std form.

 

The xu10J4RS, is a fantastic engine in std form. Regular timing belt changes and it will never give you any hassles. I also feel its very detuned in std form, they respond extremely well with cams and are easy to get over 200BHp compared to the earier mi16 and s16 engines.

 

Im currently doing another 6 conversion at the moment, I think they are brilliant bits of kit.

 

Maxi

[welshpug 1,657]

ah, you would know Maxi, does the GTi6 fanimold need altering in any way for the engine to fit in a 205's engine bay?

[bales 1]

That engine is tits out at 180NHP though, further tuning leads to premature internal component failure...ie: Rod throwing antics. The release of the gti180 was delayed as they couldnt make the internals strong engouhg to last the test of time in std form.

 

The xu10J4RS, is a fantastic engine in std form. Regular timing belt changes and it will never give you any hassles. I also feel its very detuned in std form, they respond extremely well with cams and are easy to get over 200BHp compared to the earier mi16 and s16 engines.

 

Im currently doing another 6 conversion at the moment, I think they are brilliant bits of kit.

 

Maxi

 

 

Am I right in saying that the standard exhaust manifold sits very close to the bulkhead in a 205, is there any aftermarket 4-2-1 manifolds availbale that would fit the 205. The more I think about it the better an idea this is sounding I am quite happy to pay a bit more for an engine knowing that it will be reliable. You say they are quite tunable, whats the limit of the standard induction system, I am thinking more along the lines of getting a cam or cams and having it remapped with the standard induction system on, I take it the engine management with it is re-mappable or do you need to get an aftermarket ecu.

 

Is 180bhp achievable on a standard engine with cams? I guess the head would need skimming a bit to raise the CR, still sounds like a cheaper and more reliable option than the other swaps I have been considering. Then tb's or carbs when I have some more dosh.

 

Will have to be on the lookout know for a decent engine, thanks for your replies.

 

Alex

[welshpug 1,657]

IIRC a few or the gti6 drivers have come close to 190 on a very good exhaust and induction kit with a remap, which does sound feasible as a frien of mine has his 306 S16 pushing out 171bhp, on an induction kit and decat catback exhaust adn no ecu mods.

[niklas 1]

That engine is tits out at 180NHP though, further tuning leads to premature internal component failure...ie: Rod throwing antics. The release of the gti180 was delayed as they couldnt make the internals strong engouhg to last the test of time in std form.

 

The xu10J4RS, is a fantastic engine in std form. Regular timing belt changes and it will never give you any hassles. I also feel its very detuned in std form, they respond extremely well with cams and are easy to get over 200BHp compared to the earier mi16 and s16 engines.

 

Im currently doing another 6 conversion at the moment, I think they are brilliant bits of kit.

 

Maxi

 

Any references to cases where the internals have failed? Ie what was the modifications and what happened.

There are many rumours but very few have actually tested.

According to the Ryton boys the EW will easily give 200+ with two exhaust cams and locked VVT.

[Doof 11]

But think of the torque. Go the turbo route, you know it makes sense

 

You have the same requirements as me so I wanna see which turbo option you go for

[bales 1]

But think of the torque. Go the turbo route, you know it makes sense

 

You have the same requirements as me so I wanna see which turbo option you go for

 

This is getting difficult, you see I always wanted to go the turbo route but this gti-6 option seems to have too many upsides at the moment.

 

-relatively straight forward installation

-170bhp out of the box

-with cams and a re-map 180+bhp

-t/b's at a later date when I can afford for +200bhp

-newer reliable engine

-suprisingly cheap to pick up by the look of things

 

I am struggling to think of a turbo route that is as straight forward and gives as good results......

 

I really am struggling with this, it all depends what turns up, if I see a good turbo option at a good price then I may well go that route. I will have to see what turns up when I start looking seriously - i.e when I get paid in a month!

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

Any references to cases where the internals have failed? Ie what was the modifications and what happened.

There are many rumours but very few have actually tested.

According to the Ryton boys the EW will easily give 200+ with two exhaust cams and locked VVT.

 

 

I do have contacts with pug dealers local to me and I saw several internal memos prior to the release which is how I know of the serious issues.

 

I had the pleasure of having a 180 demo for the day when they were first released. I loved every second of it, although, XU is the way to go in a 205.

 

The std gti6 manifold does go in and clear, but you WILL need a SOLID bottom mount as any fair engine movement will cause fouling of the bulkhead. I do several modications to drop the engine slightly in the bay, helping with master cylinder clearence too.

 

 

Maxi

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

The main upside to the GTi6 is the VERY good std management. A 16v turbo like I am building will give you a lot of power but is full of extra costs and is not a practical day to day engine, its a toy.

 

Trust me when I say you cant beat the GTi6 for value, reliability and all round power. VERY VERY good option and thats comming from experience, I have tried them all, 1900 8v, 1900 mi16, 2.0 mi16, 2.0 turbo and GTi6, I know which I am going for these days.

 

Maxi

[niklas 1]

I understand you obviously have the issue with the M/C which makes the EW a no-go, that's a shame.

But for LHD 205s it's probably the best N/A engine currently available. It becomes more and more common, it has great power and characteristics for both day-to-day-driving as well as track days, and it is quite reliable (there has been none recalls which I'm aware of and yes I own one).

[TEKNOPUG 3]

My main problem with this option is that the above list could be got for well under 2k but I would probably have to rebuild me engine aswell which isnt cheap as it has done 125k - doesnt smoke though

 

 

There is no reason at all why you would need to rebuild the engine. If it runs fine now then running 10psi of boost won't cause you any grief.

 

TT style manifold, T25 with 10psi and proper engine managment will see you well over 180bhp and similar levels of torque (which is the important bit). Also, peak power will be under 6k so you won't be revving the engine hard and constantly putting it under strain (which would show up problems on a high-mileage lump).

[Dream Weaver 2]

Go for GTi-6. Shame you didn't make yesterdays North meet as we had my Mi on bodies at 200bhp, and chunky's GTI-6 at about 180bhp, and there isn't anything in it really except for the noise. Although my crap suspension and wimpy driving probably didn't help

 

You could have a GTI-6 engine, bike bodies, cams and Megasquirt setup for less than £2k.

[niklas 1]

I understand you obviously have the issue with the M/C which makes the EW a no-go, that's a shame.

But for LHD 205s it's probably the best N/A engine currently available. It becomes more and more common, it has great power and characteristics for both day-to-day-driving as well as track days, and it is quite reliable (there has been none recalls which I'm aware of and yes I own one).

 

And of course, it doesn't have oil surge

 

Interresting read about the engine:

From_concept_to_reality.doc

[chunkymonkey 0]

hi bales im happy with the gti6 in my 205.the torque is really good and its a quick car i think and sounds fantastic too! i would recomend the gti6 to you with out any doubt.

cheers gaz

[bales 1]

I'm a bit gutted now that I couldnt come to the meet on sunday, I would really have liked to have seen your cars, especially dreamweavers and chunky's.

 

Hopefully at the next one I may even have my car ready - no idea what will be in it yet though!

Edited November 7, 2006 by bales