Starting Issues - Fit Relay Or Starter Button?

[Edp 67 3 Cars]

I'm gonna fit one of these bad boys

 

http://www.artmag.com/forest/images/106_.jpg

[Dream Weaver 2]

[madspikes 41 1 Cars]

I used a black one of these.

 

Button

 

It still un-noticed on the obosite side of the steering columb to the ignition barrel. You need to hold the botton in and turn the key at the same time, works first time every time.

 

A relay close to the starter is the best course of action.

 

Mad.

Edited November 4, 2006 by madspikes

[Guest Nath]

i had this problem, switch and relay solved it nicely. i put the push button above the right hand compartment below the ignition barrel - out of sight unless its needed

[Minsc 0]

Look This

 

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

Well, personally I'd do at least a small amout of testing first to at least see if it shows up anything obvious wrong.

 

I've had 2 cars show these symptoms, one fixed with a new starter and one required a bypass wire (direct feed from after the immobiliser to the starter in parallel with the original). The one requiring the bypass wire was fairly obvious when tested using a meter...

 

The other I replaced the starter cause I had the inlet manifold off anyway.

 

Oh and my third car also suffered a little, a new starter has 99.9% cured it but if VERY hot (e.g. fans on sitting in traffic in summer) then it can fail until the engine cools a little.

 

Tis a combination of things. Oh and that relay circuit looks absolutely fine and I'd use this in place of a button/switch. A much more "factory" solution.

 

Rob

 

Rob

[Dream Weaver 2]

Thanks Rob, that's the idea would prefer that to a button.

 

Ironically, it worked without problem all day yesterday and its been sat unused for 3 weeks, so I was expecting starter problems all day but it was fine

[pip470 61]

Can i just add because i have no end of troubles since fitting a push button start, Firstly i had brown multi plug trouble and a push button start in the shed so instead of bypassing the brown multi plug i just fitted the push button start straight to the starter. So turn the key 2 clicks and push the button. This how ever brought up another problem, My sad would now not close, Idle at 2000-3000 revs when warm. At first i didnt think they were related, i took the sad of and replaced it with a spare, i measured the voltage at the plug of the sad and got battery voltage, I connected my sad straight to the battery and after a short while it closed. It just wouldnt close when connected as its supposed too, so i bypassed the brown multiplug and used the original wiring hey presto no more sad issues nice idle no push button start. Im no electrician so maybe rob could help explain, the third position on the ignition must do more than the starter as its a big thick wire. This maybe help some one maybe not!

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

Just to refresh this topic, I've had more trouble with mine just recently & looked further into fitting a relay.

 

The solenoid wire has gone high resistance so it doesn't even give enough to the click the solenoid but it has enough juice to close a relay so I went to wire one up.

 

I've used the original solenoid wire for pin 1, an earth to the gearbox stud from pin 2, a wire from the battery to the relay pin 3, to the solenoid from pin 5.

 

While this worked, the starter stayed engaged so its no good.

 

I need to fit a second momentarily switched 12v to pin 3 so the relay opens again after the engine has started.

 

Which leads me to my problem, where can I find one so that it works as normal from the ignition switch?

 

Graham.

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

I've done a temporary cure by replacing the wire running from the multiplug to the solenoid. I traced it all through & that was the wire that was at fault & killing the power feed.

 

All works now but I still want to fit a relay in the near future so anyone with a source for another switched 12v along with the solenoid feed will make this dead easy.

 

Graham.

[ALEX 98 1 Cars]

When you try it the solenoid just clicks. Sometimes it catches after 2 or 3 clicks, but usually it just won't do anything until you attach a wire to the battery.

 

I may try a different starter.

 

Exactly whats mine doing.

A new starter only fixes it for a month or two. I've had 3 GSF replacements on mine since Iv'e had it.

 

I too have the annoying 'count the clicks before it starts' syndrome.

 

If I ever get the time to do anything on my own car, I'll also be fitting a relay close to the starter. I'll not be bothering with a chavtastic start button though

 

I wondering if the battery isn't up to it, which is due for changing, I'm think It might be worthwhile shelling out for a decent battery.

I don't fancy a start button either. It would confuse the hell out of my mum if she ever had to shift the car.

If its not the battery I'd put it down to the contacts in the ignition barrel as all the wiring o the starter is new in mine too.

[Dream Weaver 2]

It did it again on Thursday, I had to get the car out the garage so the plumber could finish sorting the heating but it wouldn't start.

 

I touched the wire I had on the solenoid onto the battery which usually fires it up but that didn't work this time either (though it wasn't properly fixed to the solenoid I dont think).

 

I got the battery charger on and it fired straight away. 5 hours later after it had been sat in the rain it fired up first time again.

 

From another thread, phatgti mentioned it will be an earthing issue, and thinking about it, this makes sense as the charger will provide a proper earth.

 

My plan now is to fit new battery terminals, the clamp type, and clean all the earths up properly. I'll also fit the relay.

 

Graham - have you tried changing the relay configuration? As the original solenoid wire only works when you turn the key then when attached to an open relay it should only close the relay when the key is turned, then retun to open again afterwards?

[madspikes 41 1 Cars]

I had the same problem with the starter staying engaged when I installed a relay.... The fix, I fitted a small push switch into the circuit as well. Been fine ever since.

 

What I did was to run a new wire from the ignition barrel (start position) to a push switch, then onto the relay.

 

You really need to use the relay to switch a feed directly (fused of course) from the battery, or your just keep having the same starting problems.

 

 

Mad.

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

Graham - have you tried changing the relay configuration? As the original solenoid wire only works when you turn the key then when attached to an open relay it should only close the relay when the key is turned, then retun to open again afterwards?

Simon, I've tried all the possible wire configurations but the way I tried it was the only one that worked as a relay, just it held the relay closed with it wired as I wrote in my last reply. I melted a relay & the insulation on two heavy duty wires messing with the connections to the relay from the battery.

 

Only way to disengage the starter was to remove the battery feed to the relay with it wired in so the igniton switched relay closed the circuit.

 

I've almost decided that a starter switch is the way forward if the new wire proves not to have cured the fault on mine. I've already found an un-used fused 12v feed so all I need is another wire from there to the solenoid should I choose to do it this way.

 

Graham.

[Dream Weaver 2]

I'm changing my battery terminals, and clean up all the earth points first off, and if it still does it then a starter switch is the way forward.

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

I think I know why you are getting the relay stuck on...

 

I bet you are feeding the switch 12V from the ignition to the relay coil and to the starter. You are then feeding the permenant 12V to the starter via the switch side of the relay. The problem being that the switched 12V is connected to both the coil side of the relay and the switch side (by connecting both the switch 12V and the relay output to the starter motor). Do this and the relay will not turn off (the switch side supplies power to the relay coil holding it on).

 

If you need me to I can draw the circuit both wrong and right...

 

Rob

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

Rob, I wired it as I described in a previous reply & thats the only way I could wire the relay so it closed with the ignition switch in the usual start position & release when returned but not when the battery was wired in Any other mix of wire locations & nothing happened.

 

I've attached a (shady webcam) picture of the inside of the relay & the pin orientation.

 

The relay coil is connected to pin 1 which I wired the origibnalsolenoid feed to, earth from pin 2, battery feed to pin 3 & wire to the solenoid on pin 5.

 

Please post up a diagram when you have chance & I'll try it out to see if it is my wiring at fault.

 

Graham.

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

 

OK see attached diagram. If you get A connected to B then the switch feeds 12V to A from B once engaged so relay can not be turned off. This may be the problem with it getting stuck on.

 

Rob

 

P.S. Note that the Tachy needs a feed from the last position on the ignition switch.

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

Thanks Rob, I've used the tachy relay switched on the MP3.1 loom aslo but I should be able to tap into it if needed. The new wire from the brown multiplug to solenoid seems to have cured it for now though.

 

Just been looking at the relay with the cover off & I had it wired as in your diagram above & the attached digram.

 

Pin 1 = A, Pin 2 = earth, Pin 3 is direct from battery & pin 5 = B to solenoid. Thats the only way I could get it working but it stuck on.

 

Graham.

starter_relay.pdf

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

Only thing I can think of then is that the solenoid is an inductive load. This can generate big reverse voltages when turning off, hence arcing across swiches. Somehow I doubt it is this though otherwise it would fry the tachy every time it turned off!

 

Could also be that the contacts of the relay are welded together, again unlikely. In this case the relay contacts would still be closed when not in circuit (tested with a meter).

 

Rob

[Dream Weaver 2]

Just bringing this back up as (touch wood) I seem to have solved my starting problems.

 

I bought a starter button off eBay for £15, which in the end was a waste of money as so far I have only used the 40a relay from the kit I got which I could've bought for £2 or £3

 

I still have the switch so I could wire it in if I like.

 

The problem was solved by taking the ignition wire straight to the relay, then the relay onto the starter solenoid. I also went factory and have sited the relay in the small black relay box behind the passenger strut (where the horn and driving light relays live)

 

It now fires up (so far) every time, and it even starts a bit quicker and quieter as well.

 

The wiring is shown in my Emerald wiring diagram below if anyone wants a peek.