eob 7 Posted October 29, 2006 My local Maxol station just got its first E85 Ethanol pump in. It's a lovely 90c a litre (about £0.60p). I know ethanol engines burn more which means it's not as cheap as petrol to run (yet) BUT, what's involved in converting a 205 Mi16 on Motronic or a 205 GTi on the old Jetronic to run ethanol? Ideally, a flex-fuel set-up would be ideal as it could run pure petrol, pure ethanol, or any combination of the two? I know that this is normally done by using the knock sensor to retard or advance the spark based on what the engine is doing, but not sure what's involved in getting it to work properly? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jim21070 2 Posted October 29, 2006 (edited) 100% Ethanol needs to run much richer, atbot 4:1 IIRC but E85 not nearly so rich but still a good bit richer than pure petrol. The main problem with it is that it is highly corrosive and scours fuel system components and can cause them damage unless they're rated for Ethanol use. I very much doubt Mi16 stuff is. Also, in an old system it'll scour all the old sh1te and varnish out of the fuel tank and lines and likely clog up the filter and/or block the injectors and wreck the pump.. Lastly, Ethanol is a deadly poison. Not nice stuff at all. One must guard very carefully against exhaust leaks as the fumes are pretty deadly too. Ethanol Dragsters have to wear face-masks apparantly. Edited October 29, 2006 by jim21070 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benje 0 Posted October 29, 2006 Surely burning ethanol just gives off water and CO2? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jim21070 2 Posted October 29, 2006 Surely burning ethanol just gives off water and CO2? Perfect combustion, yes, just water and CO2 but combustion is never perfect. With E85 it's likely not dangerous but with 100% ethanol and the fuel:air ratios you have to run, there is likely to be a good bit of unburned Ethanol flowing straight out of the exhaust at certain times. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eob 7 Posted October 29, 2006 ...but if someone REALLY wanted to burn ethanol...? In a 205? What's involved? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dee205 3 Posted October 30, 2006 ...but if someone REALLY wanted to burn ethanol...? In a 205? What's involved? 1. Money... a lot. 2. Stupidity Begs the question, why? Damien Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benje 0 Posted October 30, 2006 Why not use LPG? And where can you get the ethanol from as I'm sure I read somewhere that there is only about 10 stations in the entire UK (I know your in Ireland but...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BrainFluid Posted October 31, 2006 My local Maxol station just got its first E85 Ethanol pump in. ... Also, in an old system it'll scour all the old sh1te and varnish out of the fuel tank and lines and likely clog up the filter and/or block the injectors and wreck the pump.. True, but once this has happened it'll all be nice and clean! Begs the question, why? The enviroment one would imagine. Using a sustainable fuel maybe... As for comments of my own, I dont know , however...What about running a mix? Try a 50/50 mix with petrol maybe? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dee205 3 Posted October 31, 2006 ...The enviroment one would imagine. Using a sustainable fuel maybe... WHat about all that CO2! I suppose you could bottle it and feed the trees with it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BrainFluid Posted October 31, 2006 WHat about all that CO2! I suppose you could bottle it and feed the trees with it! I think your missing the point of what the word 'sustainable' means... The Ethanol is made from Bio-matter so 'all that CO2' is reabsorbed by the next crop of bio-matter that is used to made further Ethanol. Thus the carbon is locked into a smaller 'carbon cycle' . (of course there is the energy cost in making the stuff, but thats the same with petro-chemicals too) Further reading about ethanol can be obtained here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BrainFluid Posted November 1, 2006 Just to add. If you do read all that wikipedia has to say about running on ethanol (see link in previous post)... About 2 thirds of the way through it mentions that all cars made 1988 onwards were fitted with materials able to run 10% ethanol minimun...However, they say that the improvment to the materials used from this date should theoretically be able to withstand upto 50% ethanol, tho' the car companies are not willing to comfirm any ammount higher than 10%. In Brazil all petrol is 20% ethanol after a study showing that most the cars on their roads would be able to handle this as a minimum. It looks like E85 is called that because its 85% ethanol and 15% petrol, so, if you were feeling expeimantal and were to put a 50/50 mix of petrol and E85 in you would actually be running *quick calculation* 42.5% ethanol and 57.5% petrol...Which sounds pretty reasonable. It would be great if some-one could try this and find out how it goes! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
veloce200 3 Posted November 1, 2006 Lastly, Ethanol is a deadly poison. Not nice stuff at all. One must guard very carefully against exhaust leaks as the fumes are pretty deadly too. Ethanol Dragsters have to wear face-masks apparantly. so you don't drink alcohol then? Deadly poison - I think you mean Methanol... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jim21070 2 Posted November 1, 2006 so you don't drink alcohol then? Deadly poison - I think you mean Methanol... Yes, silly me. I got my thanols all mixed up Actually I don't drink alcohol. I love it but my body doesn't and it makes sure I know for a good three days any time I try to have a drink Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
veloce200 3 Posted November 1, 2006 Yes, silly me. I got my thanols all mixed up Actually I don't drink alcohol. I love it but my body doesn't and it makes sure I know for a good three days any time I try to have a drink that's an annoying allergy ! try meths that oughta make alcohol seem most agreeable! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beastie 1 Posted November 1, 2006 that's an annoying allergy ! try meths that oughta make alcohol seem most agreeable! A doctor friend who used to work in A&E tells me that down - and - outs have now realised that the only antidote to drinking meths is.... alcohol. Tramps now routinely arrrive at A&E in some cities claiming to have consumed meths because the health service is obliged to get them drunk for free just in case they are telling the truth As far as my car is concerned the methanol would be far more interesting as a fuel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
veloce200 3 Posted November 1, 2006 A doctor friend who used to work in A&E tells me that down - and - outs have now realised that the only antidote to drinking meths is.... alcohol. Tramps now routinely arrrive at A&E in some cities claiming to have consumed meths because the health service is obliged to get them drunk for free just in case they are telling the truth As far as my car is concerned the methanol would be far more interesting as a fuel i remember seeing in an american film once a trick of the tramps is methalated sprits (95% ethanol 5 % meths added to prevent consumption) being drunk through a loaf of bred evaporates most of the meths... back to thread. using E85 would give a clear conscience from global warming POV but it would need aftermarket ecu with two maps and wide band lambda for use on normal fuel. expensive conversion and car will make less miles per gallon too. but environmentally seeing as the pug is already built it's clean and green! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BrainFluid Posted November 1, 2006 back to thread. using E85 would give a clear conscience from global warming POV but it would need aftermarket ecu with two maps and wide band lambda for use on normal fuel. expensive conversion and car will make less miles per gallon too. but environmentally seeing as the pug is already built it's clean and green! Would you definatly need a new ecu if one was to run a mix tho' ? Wikipedia seems to think not? Remember I dont actually know much and can only go on what I read/ am told! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
veloce200 3 Posted November 2, 2006 Would you definatly need a new ecu if one was to run a mix tho' ? Wikipedia seems to think not? Remember I dont actually know much and can only go on what I read/ am told! 10-20% ethanol would be fine. it will run lean but that shouldn't cause problems except perhaps at WOT - just keep an eye on plug readings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
