Ice Advise Please.

[Guest BrainFluid]

I've just been reading DrSartys advise here for non amp systems.

 

 

Great stuff but I'm looking for some advise on a system with amps Nothing too spastic, just loud enough with clarity and sound quality prefered. Bare with me because this'll be the first time for me, I'm an ice virgin

 

I've gleened this much so far and I'ld like to run past y'all...

 

More amps equalls better quality right? So thats one amp for the sub (is 8 inch better quality?),

One for the speakers (6x9's?) at the back shelf.

Should I use an amp for the front door speakers (for better quality) too (5.1/4") and tweeters me thinks.

And just let the existing rear speakers run off the stereo.

 

If thats all correct, what I'm really struggling with is what power speakers to use in the doors, the shealth and the sub? Also how do you match them up with the amps, power wise of course! I like the Idea of modest (cheaper) mini amps running the speakers and a larger (more expensive) one to run the sub on. All these amps being 2way right?

 

Does anyone any good combo's while were at it?

 

Thanks very much, I know I've been posting rarther a bit of late, but when I'm away from my garage Mental Planning takes over from Pratical action!

[munky205 0]

Sounds a bit over the top to have all those amps for a simple install. Most people just have one amp to power the sub and decent speakers to supply the quality. 6*9's aren't always the best route to take either as the bass from the sub distorts the sound from them anyway. Tweeters make more difference than you would have thought but in a strange way as you dont notice what they are doing untill you pay particular attention to them. Keeping it simple can give you great results and you'll save yourself a wod of cash while your at it

[aeinstein 0]

if you insist on amps, which aren't really a necessity in a little car like a 205, unless you want to blow the arse out of your neighbourhood, then a decent head unit should have 3 pre amplifier outputs, which (imho of course) would be well put to use in running a good 4 channel amp for the door speakers/shelf mounted speakers (don't cut a virgin parcel shelf, good ones are getting rare!) and a 2 channel/monoblock for a sub.

 

the size of sub is personal preference, if you listen to dance music, a 10' is tight and punchy, and better in an un-ported box, or a 12' would sound better for general music, but as i said, personal choice. i would only go for 8' if space is tight, but thats just me.

 

bear in mind that good quality speaker cables will make a big difference, as will decent speakers. i have set cars up using aftermarket speakers in standard holes, that sounded better than ones where people had chopped at doors and shelves to get big speakers in.

 

in my experience, i generally add the power of the channels, and work on matching the speakers to each amp, if that makes sense? (2x150w amp, use speakers rated at 300w) though others may have different ways of working...

 

hth

 

al

[tom_m 0]

speakers using a dedicated amplifier will always sound better than being run of a tiny head unit amplifier.

 

you don't need to go quite so overboard on the number of amps you are thinking of running tho.

 

you could simply run a 4 channel amp to the existing speaker palcements and uprate the speakers and it will instantly sound better. add a small sub on its own amp and you'll add depth to the sound. (you may even be able to find a 4 channel that can run two of the channels in tri mode negating the need for a second amp)

 

if you want to go bigger a decent set of components up front plus a sub will make a very nice sound stage, but may need custom enclosures or the door modifiying for them to fit.

 

6x9s and a sub are something to stay away from, because the subs will interfere with the base cones of the 6x9s, but in reality you'll never notice this because all you will hear is the base from the sub(s)

 

i've been working on a set of cards for the rear quarters and i reckon you could get a nice set of components or even an 8in driver in there if you wanted to, the depth of the panel should give you a decent size enclosure, but will need deadening to stop the panels vibrating (and sealing if you want to run a decent sub in there)

 

finally remember to check your ratings, max power handling doesn't mean anything, its the RMS (route mean square) rating you want to look at, and match your speakers and amps accordingly. overdriving your speakers will cause premature voice coil death, while over driving your amp will cause clipping (becuse you'll have to turn the gain right up) and this will cause amp death!

 

at the end of the day tho, remember the 205 is a very small tin box, less is more, and you'll never get the same quality sound out of it as a home stereo unless you fill it with so much sound deadening that it won't move anymore!

 

hope this helps

tom

Edited October 23, 2006 by tom_m

[TEKNOPUG 3]

I'm planning on running some mid/tweeters up front in the orignal holes (tweeters in the A pillars) and then 8" speakers in the rear quarters. Haven't quite been able to decide whether to go for subs or full range for the 8". I've been looking for ages for a Denon DCA 600 (6*50w) to run the whole lot. But they stopped making them years ago.

 

If I can find a amp with a decent buit in crossover, I may get away 4 way amp and running both the mids/tweeters of one channel each and the 8" off the others.

[tom_m 0]

Haven't quite been able to decide whether to go for subs or full range for the 8".

 

kaz's brother has a set of 2-way pioneer 8s for sale at a very reasonable price if that helps you make up your mind?

[TEKNOPUG 3]

Do they come attached to his Scooby?!

[Guest BrainFluid]

Tnx for the replies so far

 

Sounds a bit over the top to have all those amps for a simple install. Most people just have one amp to power the sub and decent speakers to supply the quality.

 

Hey man Unlike most folk I'm thinking quality and clarity sound here. With as little distortion when cranked up to the systems *modest* peak. I had read that using seperate amps for the different speakers will help attain this? I'm thinking of Using as small as possible amps (are 10cm x 10cm or so available) running at low wattage (100w each?)

 

 

6*9's aren't always the best route to take either as the bass from the sub distorts the sound from them anyway.you'll save yourself a wod of cash while your at it

If not 6x9's, what do you suggest?

 

 

 

if you insist on amps, which aren't really a necessity in a little car like a 205, unless you want to blow the arse out of your neighbourhood

 

Lol, I dont want to kick the arse out of the keighbourhood but if I want to grace the local vicinity with some music I certainly would like it to be clear!

 

 

 

(don't cut a virgin parcel shelf, good ones are getting rare!)

 

Sure, but I wouldnt need too for some reason I have 2 minty parcel shelves (i suspect that one is a phase1) and 1 which has alreadt been butchered by a previous owner!

 

 

Nate.

[Guest BrainFluid]

Aha! I see a couple of Pirates have entered the scene whilst I was getting drunk on beer and typing!

 

Good stuff. Garr! Seen a wee post about an up front sub, sounds good. Would you run that on its own or with another in the boot too? Not having 6x9 sound great in a less boyish way.

 

How much does Kaz want for the sub Tom?

[tom_m 0]

they aren't strictly subs mate, its a pair of 8in full wave 2 way drivers, one big 8in bass bass driver and a slightly smaller driver sat in front of it.

 

i don't recall precisely but i do remember it a very reasonable price (they've been taking up space he hasn't got in his new place) i'll find out and let anyone who is interested know

[richard 0]

Personally, i think instead of blowing a huge amount of your budget on amps i would suggest you put this money into a good set of front components.

 

Fronts.

a nice set of infinity kappa's or similar

 

Rear.

more kappa's

 

Boot.

a nice 8" sub boxed will give you a good kick, do some research on these because what may look loud could end up sounding crap and boomy.

 

I'd suggest that you seal off the front and rear speakers mounting them onto something like thin mdf or equiv.

 

In terms of sound staging, remember the sound should come from the front. So, the staging direction has to be in front of you.

 

6x9's on the shelf will only be 'ok' if your not going to use a sub. It will screw the sound up big time if you use both.

[Guest BrainFluid]

they aren't strictly subs mate, its a pair of 8in full wave 2 way drivers, one big 8in bass bass driver and a slightly smaller driver sat in front of it.

 

i don't recall precisely but i do remember it a very reasonable price (they've been taking up space he hasn't got in his new place) i'll find out and let anyone who is interested know

 

Ah the penny has just dropped that you were offering them to Tekno pug...[doh]

[tom_m 0]

Do they come attached to his Scooby?!

 

lol missed this replay andy, no they don't sorry!

 

they are three years old, and don't look like they've been used. (he's also got some brand new 7x10s still in the box if anyone feels like joining me on the dark side)

 

Ah the penny has just dropped that you were offering them to Tekno pug...[doh]

 

yeah sorry nate, bad form i know what with it being your thread and all, but if andy don't want them you're more than welcom to em

Edited October 23, 2006 by tom_m

[Guest BrainFluid]

yeah sorry nate, bad form

 

No problemo, the beer/wine is kicking in so obviously I'm not reading right...

 

(on a monday night too, how shocking)

[Paintguy 0]

Can you give us an idea of your budget?

 

 

For a balanced 'starter' system that can be upgraded later, I'd go for:

1. Decent head unit with pre-amp outputs
   
2. Good quality component speakers for the front
   
3. A reasonably rated 4 channel amp ( circa 4x100w)
   
4. A small sub
   

Two channels of the amp can be used to power the front components, with the separate tweeters giving you much more placement options, and the other two channels could be bridged (sort of joined together) to power the sub. A decent 10" in a sealed box will give you plenty of volume for a 205, and plenty of quality too.

 

If you want to run rear speakers, these can be run straight off the head unit for now.

 

 

At a later stage, you could get a more powerful amp for your sub, and use the 4 channel to run your fronts and rears, or possibly your front components actively (i.e. 2 channels on the tweets, 2 on the midrange).

[Guest BrainFluid]

Can you give us an idea of your budget?

 

This is why I'm researching the best route to methodical quality. I dont have an exact ammout that I'm looking at spending, I need to know what I need in order to start aquiring bargains

 

Your reasoning is sound however, so far I have/do not have...

 

1. Decent head unit with pre-amp outputs

2. Good quality component speakers for the front

3. A reasonably rated 4 channel amp ( circa 4x100w)

4. A small sub

 

With regards to the amp would I not get a better quality 2 way amps for the same money as a 4 way amp?

I am really liking the idea of the seperate amp here but please just tell me if am am wrong about the whole seperate amps leads to better quality!

 

Next step is obviously to get decent up front speakers, am hanging on the seperate wee amp for them though...

[TEKNOPUG 3]

I would forget about rear speakers - you aren't going to hear them and screw the passengers in the back. Quality set of comps up front and a small sub in the rear will be quite sufficent in a 205

[Patches 0]

My 5ps worth -

 

I have Kenwood KDC-W6031 headunit, 2 Infinty kappa 15 inch front speakrs ( hidden), 2 Infinity kappa 6x9s in back with Kicker 12" sub/box and Maystar amp ( until it got stolen!!) makes for a very good setup. (professionally installed/configured) Im a fan of 6x9s and a sub actually, makes for a much deeper bass kick if thats what you like!

 

You really dont need to go all out with ICE in the pug unless you're really into your music and like p'ssing off everyone in the street/neighbours etc. To give you an idea, I cant have mine anywhere near full bore as it make my eyeballs twitch and the rear view mirror rock!! lol!!!

 

Cheers

 

Michelle

[richard 0]

lol @ michelle.

thats just the way it should be!

 

Nate, the old theory of crap in, crap out applies big time to audio...especially an environment such as car audio.

Thankfully though headunits have come on a hell of a long way.

 

Seperate amps do give you a better overall sound, but require crossovers and more than likely proffessional set up. Complicating things with multiple amps could give you a really crap sound.

 

Have a ported 10" box with 800w kenwood sub....makes for interesting rattles and bits of the car that move. Ive got a lot of work to get this setup properly now as the exhaust is cancelling out alot of the bass resonance.

(another factor for you to consider!)

 

Simple things such as positioning of the sub can make all the difference. Personally i would be careful as to what size box you get, reason being is that you may find turning the box to face across the boot with give you a much more rounded sound....as long as the box isnt too big that is.

 

As for amp choice, im a fan of Alpine amps. My previous ones have been fantastic both in build quality and overall sound.

[TEKNOPUG 3]

My 5ps worth -

 

I have Kenwood KDC-W6031 headunit, 2 Infinty kappa 15 inch front speakrs ( hidden),

 

 

I can't wait to see pics of that install!!!!

[Paintguy 0]

^^^ Me too!

 

I know of a guy putting some 10"s in his front doors, but 15"s is something else

 

 

Brain Fluid: A single 4 channel amp would probably be cheaper than two 2 channels of the same type, and would be easier to install. Yes there may be a slight quality advantage with 2 amps, but unless you're spending big money on speakers, and several hundred on soundproofing/deadening, you won't notice the difference in a 205.

 

Of course there's another side to it. If you really want separate amps, you could get a decent 2 channel for the fronts, and get a class D monoblock for the sub. These run much more efficiently than 'normal' class A/B amps, so will drain less battery power, but are regarded as slightly lower quality. Again though, unless you're budget is huge, the quality difference won't be noticeable.

 

Again, it's all down to how much you're prepared to spend, and there are some real bargains available second hand, so you can get more for your money

[Patches 0]

I can't wait to see pics of that install!!!!

 

yada yada yada yes, slight error made in measurement specification....

 

lol

[Paintguy 0]

yada yada yada yes, slight error made in measurement specification....

That's usually a blokes excuse.....

[Patches 0]

That's usually a blokes excuse.....

 

quite, clearly the tape measure is faulty here..

[Guest BrainFluid]

You guys...!

 

Thank for all the advise so far, its all going in

 

I am new to all this and it would seem that there is an awfull lot to think about eh!?

 

I'll just let the info dust settle in my noggin and I'll get back too you with some conclusions.

 

Many thanks,

 

Nathan.