Mi16 Baffled Sump / Cat Among The Pidgeons!

[saml666 0]

Everyones bored to tears on this one right?

 

I've read and read and read the threads on the old mi oil surge problem and then I was speaking to a guy who modifies heads etc for me when I'm doing that sort of thing...

 

He insisted I let him baffle it and since I'll give anything a try one (well, almost) I let him. What he has done is ABSOLUTELY and entirely unlike anything I have seen before when pics of mi16 baffled sumps have been posted. One day I will take pictures but urgency has meant it went straight on the car - lack of a top engine mount (yep, the ally drivers side bit that you HAVE TO HAVE for a 205 conversion) means I can't drive it yet though

 

Basically there isn't a vertical plate in sight, yet if you fill it with oil and slosh it around, even hold vertically it takes a considerable time before the pickup is dry. It allows huge amounts of oil to return to the pickup - its as though he's created a "black hole" for oil...

 

OK, I know you're all sceptical and so am I - I still haven't tried it in anger!

 

I know full-well that it probably won't have ALL the same effects as dry sump apps etc., I was just so impressed by the simplicity of what he did and how unlike anything else I've seen on here it is that I thought I'd tell you about it.

 

Next step is to try it, and maybe eat my words - who knows? When I do I will report back properly, like some of my other mods, no matter how well they work for me they won't work for everyone. I'm looking at doing stage rallies and it may work there. A really savage track driver on the longest flat out corner going may still find it gives up and pressure drops but if it works for a few of us It'd be mighty.

 

Ah well, there we are, I will let you know when the car is finished and run-in

 

Sam

[Hilgie 16 2 Cars]

What has he made then? I mean as even Peugeot engineers made a vertical baffle with a trapdoor?

[jonand 0]

Everyones bored to tears on this one right?

 

I've read and read and read the threads on the old mi oil surge problem and then I was speaking to a guy who modifies heads etc for me when I'm doing that sort of thing...

 

He insisted I let him baffle it and since I'll give anything a try one (well, almost) I let him. What he has done is ABSOLUTELY and entirely unlike anything I have seen before when pics of mi16 baffled sumps have been posted. One day I will take pictures but urgency has meant it went straight on the car - lack of a top engine mount (yep, the ally drivers side bit that you HAVE TO HAVE for a 205 conversion) means I can't drive it yet though

 

Basically there isn't a vertical plate in sight, yet if you fill it with oil and slosh it around, even hold vertically it takes a considerable time before the pickup is dry. It allows huge amounts of oil to return to the pickup - its as though he's created a "black hole" for oil...

 

OK, I know you're all sceptical and so am I - I still haven't tried it in anger!

 

I know full-well that it probably won't have ALL the same effects as dry sump apps etc., I was just so impressed by the simplicity of what he did and how unlike anything else I've seen on here it is that I thought I'd tell you about it.

 

Next step is to try it, and maybe eat my words - who knows? When I do I will report back properly, like some of my other mods, no matter how well they work for me they won't work for everyone. I'm looking at doing stage rallies and it may work there. A really savage track driver on the longest flat out corner going may still find it gives up and pressure drops but if it works for a few of us It'd be mighty.

 

Ah well, there we are, I will let you know when the car is finished and run-in

 

Sam

 

 

Good luck with the mods - but a word of caution

 

If you check my threads you will see that I have suffered the dreaded big end spinning problem - which I am convinced isn't down to surge. I believe that oil type and temperature are equally important - other responses from my threads seem to suggest that I'm not the only one thinking this.

 

My advice, if using the engine at sustained high revs, would be to ensure you use a proper oil cooler with thermostat (mounted in the air flow), genuine parts oil filter, - and consider your oil choice carefully (there are different views on this) - I shall be using a 10 - 60 fully synthetic racing oil after the rebuild.

 

Hope this helps

Jon

[saml666 0]

My advice, if using the engine at sustained high revs, would be to ensure you use a proper oil cooler with thermostat (mounted in the air flow), genuine parts oil filter, - and consider your oil choice carefully (there are different views on this) - I shall be using a 10 - 60 fully synthetic racing oil after the rebuild.

 

Cheers Jon, I think you're dead right - I don't have a decent oil cooler fitted yet, but I've got lots of gentle running-in to do - then I'll take it off the road for a few days to replace the stodgy old hoses, add a cooler etc ready for competition.

 

Hilgie, its hard to explain until you see it - better still when you hold it over an oil-bath and try it out (messy fun). Basically there are two horizontal-plane baffles, and no moving parts. Steve (the guy thats done it) spent ages putting baffles in and then testing it before final shaping and welding to ensure surging oil is kept in check and returned right on top of the pickup.

 

My gut feeling is that it will be far more effective than the "I've welded a couple of vertical plates in" jobs where oil just washes over the top and is often then held away from the pickup - doh! Though whether as good as a really effective trap-door sump we have yet to see, since some say they're no use either it may be even better. LOL - f it was as good as dry sumping then it'd be sump-nirvana but a) I doub't it would be and a dry sump always lets you lower the engine for better COG or increase the distance between sump and damaging stuff in the road/track which no baffled sump will ever help with.

 

Nope, in fairness it could turn out a flop but its such a simple elegant thing I've got high hopes for it.

 

Sam

[Gentrix 2 1 Cars]

are you able to produce a useful drawing of what has been done?

[nick 3]

Anything like this?

 

Martins baffle

 

I think Martins said it was similar to the WRC cars.

 

Nick

[pee vee 1]

Anything like this?

 

Martins baffle

 

I think Martins said it was similar to the WRC cars.

 

Nick

 

 

 

Blimey! i hope that does the job as it looks like a load of work has gone into it!!!

does it work!? and are there any other things he has done to it to try and stop surge??

[nick 3]

The engine hasn't run yet. It also has solid lifters and an oil restrictor in the head.

 

Do a search for "baffle" by crf450 and you'll find the whole thread.

 

Nick

[saml666 0]

Hi Gentrix, I will post a drawing at some point - my car time is all consumed trying to find a blinkin' engine mount and get it running at the minute though

 

...Hi Nick, nice kit - completely different though...

[Sandy 191]

Seriously consider fitting a proper oil temp gauge before a cooler, know you have an oil temp problem before you try to solve it. I've been using SPA digital temp gauges on my various Peugeot engines for a while now and have never had alarming oil temperatures, even in hard use; using only the oil-coolant heat exchanger or none at all. Many engines running an air-oil cooler (even with a thermostatic valve) overcool the oil which makes for reduced component life, longer warm up time and poor economy.

 

There's also a tendency to blame any bottom end (or big end specifically) failure of an Mi16/S16 on oil surge, often argued by sudden loss of oil pressure. If the rod bolts are tired and momentarily extend, the oil pressure will drop instantly and that bearing will spin, one of a number of possibilites that don't necessarily relate to oil pick up, and quite possible when high revs are being held for too long mid corner. The Mi16 bottom end isn't really what you would choose for high rpm use on OE components, given its stroke-rod length ratio, but that's what we expect of it.

 

I've said it before, but hey, this is a repeat thread! I know several competititve MI powered 205s that have never suffered oil surge, running very high cornering forces and baffled sumps, most with solid lifters and restrictors.

Edited October 9, 2006 by sandy309

[jonand 0]

Seriously consider fitting a proper oil temp gauge before a cooler, know you have an oil temp problem before you try to solve it. I've been using SPA digital temp gauges on my various Peugeot engines for a while now and have never had alarming oil temperatures, even in hard use; using only the oil-coolant heat exchanger or none at all. Many engines running an air-oil cooler (even with a thermostatic valve) overcool the oil which makes for reduced component life, longer warm up time and poor economy.

 

There's also a tendency to blame any bottom end (or big end specifically) failure of an Mi16/S16 on oil surge, often argued by sudden loss of oil pressure. If the rod bolts are tired and momentarily extend, the oil pressure will drop instantly and that bearing will spin, one of a number of possibilites that don't necessarily relate to oil pick up, and quite possible when high revs are being held for too long mid corner. The Mi16 bottom end isn't really what you would choose for high rpm use on OE components, given its stroke-rod length ratio, but that's what we expect of it.

 

I've said it before, but hey, this is a repeat thread! I know several competititve MI powered 205s that have never suffered oil surge, running very high cornering forces and baffled sumps, most with solid lifters and restrictors.

 

Some interesting comments in this thread. I wouldn't necessarily disagree with Sandy309, but there are many people here that have found oil temperatures to be excessive with the potential for the oil to break down - I certainly believe this to be a major contributary factor in my S16 failure. I've not heard of the rod bolt issue before, other than catastrophic failure, but can understand the reasoning - but how is this ever proven or distinguished from similar symptoms?

 

Cheers

Jon

[Sandy 191]

Oil running temp varies, there's no hard and fast rule, but to rely on the standard gauge as a guide to it is madness IMO, it's been hysterically inconsistent between dash pods and cars in my exprience.

[Batfink 201]

we drive french cars - theres no way you can trust the standard guages

[24seven 104]

I take it there's no issues with oil surge on the 8v XU engines?