Track Project Engine Rebuild (not Mi 16)

[veloce200 3]

OK guys the Pug will this winter finally get more horsepower. Being that I am in the trade I hope to make this project successful and be able to sell as a turnkey solution to anyone who might want it. However I am not aiming to "build the most powerful 205 engine" there are plenty of companies who can do that and relieve you of large sums of money.

 

Therefore in keeping with the budget nature of the 205 costs will be kept to a minimum. My objective is to be able to offer the most horsepower per £ spent for the 8v engine. This will hopefully appeal to people for trackday or low budget club motorsport. I shall be focussing on the 8v as they are widely available and make the car eligible for more series.

 

- cylinder head will be developed in house (low budget "flow bench" has been made)

- mostly std internals will be used

 

I want this post to act as a kick up the arse to make sure I actually get on and do it ! (as it's been talked about in other threads for ages!)

the only bit that is tricky is this:

 

ATMO or TURBO

 

what would people be more interested in?

the objective is to deliver more useable power than a std MI with more reliability for track use at a similar cost to an MI project - eg buy MI engine, rebuild, install etc.

[smckeown 1]

I think my engine on the old cam fits the bill really. Have you seen the comparison graphs I did a while back against the mi16 power ?

 

When I get the old cam back in very soon i'll take you for a spin Julian as your up the road.

 

The thing is, customers are probbaly more inerested in high BHP figures rather than what really makes the car fast.

[veloce200 3]

I think my engine on the old cam fits the bill really. Have you seen the comparison graphs I did a while back against the mi16 power ?

 

When I get the old cam back in very soon i'll take you for a spin Julian as your up the road.

 

The thing is, customers are probbaly more inerested in high BHP figures rather than what really makes the car fast.

 

 

 

you are right and TBH I'd be damn lucky if I could get close to that engine as I don't have the experience of Puma Racing. However even though it was not an expensive engine can you tell me how much it was (just the lump with head cam etc) then I have the £/HP figure !

[Jonmurgie 2]

Definately ATMO for a track car... without doubt. Once my Mi is running and on track I'll give my opinion on whether a tuned 8v or 16v is the way to go as well

[SimonJ 2]

If you make it turbo it will only be useful for trackdays, limiting your market.

[Jonmurgie 2]

If you make it turbo it will only be useful for trackdays, limiting your market.

Eh, how do you figure that?!

[veloce200 3]

If you make it turbo it will only be useful for trackdays, limiting your market.

 

 

not strictly true...there are a few series where turbo's can enter quite competitively - especially in the West where they have different class structures. I have my eye on one particular series at present hence the turbo possibility. Also just because a turbo moves you up a class doesn't mean the car is no longer competitive - in many series under 2 litre is the most hotly contested of all and often FASTER than over 2 litre.

 

However I am also looking at developing a turbo kit or NA screamer for my 156 so one will be turbo and one NA! which one though

[welshpug 1,655]

turbo would probably give the most BHP per £ but you'd be putting yourself into a whole different world of rice racers....

[Jonmurgie 2]

Ah right, you mean trackday vs. competition

 

It's not all about BHP though now is it... let's not forget torque

[veloce200 3]

turbo would probably give the most BHP per £ but you'd be putting yourself into a whole different world of rice racers....

 

naturally the key to success in any project is to choose the right series and the right motor.

 

all circuit sprint - modded mitsi evo - shed loads of power - 85 seconds

ford escort - 180hp pinto - 86 seconds

205 turbo - 84???

[welshpug 1,655]

naturally the key to success in any project is to choose the right series and the right motor.

 

all circuit sprint - modded mitsi evo - shed loads of power - 85 seconds

ford escort - 180hp pinto - 86 seconds

205 turbo - 84???

 

 

I get your point there, thats the kinda list of times youd see "1340cc Metro - 82" at the bottom

[veloce200 3]

Definately ATMO for a track car... without doubt. Once my Mi is running and on track I'll give my opinion on whether a tuned 8v or 16v is the way to go as well

 

 

can you tell me why you think this Jon? thanks

[Dream Weaver 2]

I'd prefer a turbo 8v to my current Mi16 - I get bored waiting for the power to arrive.

 

Hence, if this engine ever dies i'll do an 8v turbo build.

[bales 1]

I think this is a really good idea, I intend to hillclimb my 205 next year so would like a bit of extra power however don't have loads of money to throw at an engine with t/b's etc...

 

The turbo idea sounds interesting as you would have to move up to the next class, however I have been looking at some of the times posted over the season and the 2 litre and above class is nowwhere near as hotly contested as the sub 2 litre one (where most of the 205's compete). The times are also roughly the same aswell. I was at harewood on saturday and the fastest time in the sub 2 litre was 67.6 which was Dave Sykes who is off here, whereas the fastest time in the over 2 litre class was 65.2 which was done by a 550bhp white evo! and the rest of the times in that class where all pretty much the same as the lower class.

 

Thats pretty good for a 205 if you ask me!

 

Turbo 8v for me please!

Edited September 21, 2006 by bales

[veloce200 3]

I think this is a really good idea, I intend to hillclimb my 205 next year so would like a bit of extra power however don't have loads of money to throw at an engine with t/b's etc...

 

The turbo idea sounds interesting as you would have to move up to the next class, however I have been looking at some of the times posted over the season and the 2 litre and above class is nowwhere near as hotly contested as the sub 2 litre one (where most of the 205's compete). The times are also roughly the same aswell. I was at harewood on saturday and the fastest time in the sub 2 litre was 67.6 which was Dave Sykes who is off here, whereas the fastest time in the over 2 litre class was 65.2 which was done by a 550bhp white evo! and the rest of the times in that class where all pretty much the same as the lower class.

 

Thats pretty good for a 205 if you ask me!

 

Turbo 8v for me please!

 

 

that's just it - my theory is over 2 litre classes tend to be more exp. to buy tune and crash so you get less competition! corner speed and weight is still most important thing though so IF you can lay the power down a turbo pug could be a giant killer!

 

that's

 

turbo 2

atmo 2

 

please keep scores updated !

Edited September 21, 2006 by veloce200

[sonofsam 5]

Laying the power down in my turbo 205 does not seem to be a problem:)

 

Turbo 3

Atmo 2

[petert 585]

Whilst Sean's Puma engine was obviously a cracker, I would have done one thing differently, which I believe to be the most important in XU development. - decrease the squish height. A thinner head gasket should be used to decrease the squish height and increase the CR. Don't just take a big skim off the head.

[Jonmurgie 2]

can you tell me why you think this Jon? thanks

Well this is my opinion only of course but given a choice I'd prefer the smoother and revier delivery of an ATMO car on track than having to dice with lag and sudden boost of a turbo application... though I've never really driven a turbo car on track other than a Mk4 Golf 1.8T so...

[smckeown 1]

yeah i did look into the copper gaskett's pete. That company you recommended did not do one for the XU9JA. And QEP just didnt want to increate the CR anymore on cast pistons. But I agree, if anyone was to do the same they should look to decking vs. skimming etc.

[petert 585]

yeah i did look into the copper gaskett's pete. That company you recommended did not do one for the XU9JA.

 

Yes they do. I've got several in different thicknesses. You should have just said a Peugeot 205/405 gasket! Very few down under would understand what a XU9JA was.

[smckeown 1]

oh bugger, I stated I wanted a copper gasket for "a peugeot 205 gti (xu9ja)" and got the reply "Hi,we don't have the program for a 205 peug you can have it drawn up on AutoCAD and email us the

drawing( MUST BE IN DXF FORMAT).It must

be 99.99% accurate"

 

Might be worth my while still getting one then do you think ?

[veloce200 3]

oh bugger, I stated I wanted a copper gasket for "a peugeot 205 gti (xu9ja)" and got the reply "Hi,we don't have the program for a 205 peug you can have it drawn up on AutoCAD and email us the

drawing( MUST BE IN DXF FORMAT).It must

be 99.99% accurate"

 

Might be worth my while still getting one then do you think ?

 

 

Spesso are the guys for gaskets is that who you are talking about?

anyway back to topic - I think turbo is looking more exciting - certainly will be for trackdays. I take your point Jon but the way they deliver power is all in the design.. eg 200sx is not a torque monster..

[veloce200 3]

right stage one is complete.

 

I have a 1.6 block & pistons (thx Paul) so the plan is to build a 1.6 turbo using 1.9 pistons. theory being it will be more revvy and the torque output more favourable for traction.

 

Next step will be to source a turbo and rebuild the block. Although it is supposed to be a budget project there's nothing budget about blowing up an engine so I suspect I will stretch to forged 1.9 pistons. Can any turbo guys on here tell me what the limits of the cast piston are from experience?!

[James_m 0]

Are the 1.6 pistons used to drop compression? i think id take my chance and leave it on standard compression ratio, in fact with the prices 8v's go for is there any point opening one up?

What management you planning to use?

[veloce200 3]

Are the 1.6 pistons used to drop compression? i think id take my chance and leave it on standard compression ratio, in fact with the prices 8v's go for is there any point opening one up?

What management you planning to use?

 

1.6 pistons in 1.6 std compression. 1.9 pistons in 1.6 low compression. 1.6 pistons in 1.9 high compression.

 

I know what you mean 8v's are cheap. when I say budget project though it will still be used in anger on track, needs to be reliable and quick. lets clarify "budget"

 

205 1.9 8v full race spec - circa 190 hp - £5000 plus

Mi16 - 220 hp plus - £6000 plus (assuming buying engine, full rebuild etc)

budget project turbo 230hp? - £3000 ?

budget project atmo 170hp? - £2000

 

In all above I am assuming purchase of ECU/TB's where necessary/ Injectors

 

I already have Emerald ECU on the car.

Edited September 21, 2006 by veloce200