Finally Mapped...

[PumaRacing 2]

I don't think any of these topics makes the actual case any clearer for the people reading the forum and that's why everytime some topics opens up about it people are all making points that somehow don't make any sense. I personally don't get it at all.

 

But the most confusing thing of all is that nobody on this forum has of had a NA xu9 8v engine which makes or made more bhp and nm's. Only people know someone who should have one or could build one.

 

I don't see how anybody could have a say about the engine or the situation. I believe I've read every topic about it and have no clue who's fault what is. Only Matt could have actual info about it but he keeps his mouth shut (very smart I might add).

 

It's a forum made up of an assortment of people of varying intelligence and knowledge. What can you say. Everyone will have their own idea and it's entirely predictable that many of them won't make a scrap of sense. You should try spending time on Usenet and see what bickering goes on in there.

 

What I find most puzzling is the difference between engines and people. Engines are very simple, or at least after studying them for so long I think so. They respond only to the laws of physics. They behave in entirely predictable ways as you change each thing. By tweaking the design I can alter the power and the shape of the torque curve. Provided I actually understand what the customer is trying to achieve I can usually achieve it.

 

The problem is that some customers don't understand engines and often don't understand what they're trying to achieve or what is possible and what is impossible. Generally they want the impossible. They want more top end power than anyone has ever achieved before but with no loss of bottom end power. It must pull from idle. It must have better fuel consumption than a standard engine and ideally if you put water in the fuel tank it should turn this into wine. Oh, and it mustn't cost anything to build. They're skint.

 

Sometimes though you just end up with the veritable customer from hell. The one who just isn't capable of grasping concepts you try to explain. Who can't express what they want to achieve. You say you can build top end power but obviously this will lose bottom end power. How much low rpm loss are they prepared to accept? "Ummm, not too much." Great that's very helpful. So what's the lowest rpm you need it to pull hard from? "umm, look I just want it to have a nice spread of torque."

 

What the hell does 'nice of spread of torque' mean to you?

 

"You know - just a nice spread of torque."

 

When you've spent several hours (days? months?) going round in circles like this you know you ain't gonna win no matter what.

 

I still remember one of the very first phonecalls I got back in the days when I advertised in the comics. It was someone who raced a 100 bhp 2 litre Pinto at his local banger racing track. That should have been warning enough right there. He explained you had to retain a single carb, the std inlet manifold but you could port the head. I asked what he wanted me to do. "Could you tune it up a bit for like not too much money?"

 

"What's 'not too much money'?"

 

"Couple of 'undred nicker mate."

 

"And what sort of power are you hoping for from all this?"

 

"Well me mate got about 200 brake from 'is when 'is mate tuned it up for 'im. Be nice to beat that."

 

I stopped advertising in the comics and went ex-directory. It was a valuable lesson.

 

Some time later my local rolling road put an oik from the council estate onto me. He was building a Cosworth engine. He wanted the cylinder head ported. When he turned up he was about 5 feet tall and about 4 feet wide. He was called Trevor. I'm not saying he was thick but he very much resembled a Weeble if anyone remembers those toys. "They wobble but they don't fall down".

 

He did debt collecting on the side i.e demanding money with menaces from people who had fallen prey to loan sharks. He also did painting on the side, car repairs on the side and disposing of unwanted dead bodies on the side. In fact everything was on the side because there was no actual tax paying job underlying any of this. We struck up a deal. I wanted my house and windows painted - he wanted his head ported.

 

Cosworth heads need a huge amount of metal to be removed from the ports to make them flow. I made a special boring bar so I could machine the ports out on the mill to get each of them the same size and shape. I spent hours milling out the ports, hand shaping them and then cutting nice valve seats. He painted my house. He actually did a pretty decent job.

 

He came to look at the finished head. He studied the huge and now somewhat shiny ports for a while. He said...

 

"It don't look like you ain't done nuffink to it."

 

A certain air of tightly controlled menace began to pervade the workshop. Highly trained debt collecting hormones and a predisposition to wanton violence were clearly about to spring into action.

 

I ploughed my way through this labyrinth of double negatives and decided it was actually a compliment - although not intended to be one. I had to show him the ports in a standard head before he accepted that I had in fact done 'summfink to it'. In the end he went away happy, put the wrong size crank bearings in the engine and blew it up three times before he got it running with any reliability.

 

The lot of an engine builder is sometimes not a happy one.

[PumaRacing 2]

if only dave baker would answer the question he's been asked a few time on here. As part of the head design should the torque be falling off so quickly after 5k revs ? So far you have contradicted yourself regarding the head geing the same, the head can take a PT27 etc. So how about a clear view on the matter.

 

How about you accept the fact that you got everything you paid for and more, I've spent enough time dealing with you and have no interest in helping you with more free advice after your behaviour on here and in other places. If you want to change the engine go and get on with it. I'll look on from the sidelines as you go round in circles, ask advice from all and sundry and fail to understand any of it.

 

There's an old saying. A camel is just a horse designed by a committee. You might bear it in mind.

[smckeown 1]

How about you accept the fact that you got everything you paid for and more, I've spent enough time dealing with you and have no interest in helping you with more free advice after your behaviour on here and in other places. If you want to change the engine go and get on with it. I'll look on from the sidelines as you go round in circles, ask advice from all and sundry and fail to understand any of it.

 

There's an old saying. A camel is just a horse designed by a committee. You might bear it in mind.

 

More free advice ? I am in actual fact asking is the delivered results as per you expected. As per usual you are nothing but insulting. I'll let people make their own mind based on the contradictory information you have posted about the engine on here. You obviously don't actually know if the torque should have kept rising or not past 5k.

 

You'll find you are the only one who's behaviour is poor.

 

I'll stop posting questions and issues regarding the head, you'll probably find it for sale on here soon enough, as good as the mid range is, I cannot live with have any association with you any longer. By the time it's finished it will have very little of your involvement. I shall be using firms that actually provide good feedback regarding their products, rather than vague and slippery descriptions about what the outcome will be or whether the engine builder's targets have been met.

[PumaRacing 2]

I'll stop posting questions and issues regarding the head, you'll probably find it for sale on here soon enough, as good as the mid range is, I cannot live with have any association with you any longer. By the time it's finished it will have very little of your involvement.

 

Yippee. You'll sell everything good about the engine and then you can whinge at someone else when it doesn't go half as well. The words 'hatter', 'mad' and 'as a' spring to mind in no particular order.

[petert 586]

I guess it's keeping everyone's mind off the cricket.........

[Sandy 191]

Your maths is in error. Sean's engine produces a peak of 77 ft lbs per litre which is just over 190 psi BMEP. That's pretty exceptional for a small bore long stroke 2v engine.

I read the peak torque of Seans graph to be 142lbft, but looking again at Sean's peak figures, 146lbft is th maximum. (146/1.905)*2.475=190psi which is slighlty better than I said originally, and as you say, very good for the type of engine, but it only hangs around there for 500 rpm. And who's to say that Dyno's spot on eh Dave?

You claim you've built an 8v TU with 204 psi / 2.47 = 83 ft lbs per litre? Sorry but I'd like to see that checked on someone else's dyno.

Why the doubt? Have I doubted your figures? The way the engine mapped confirmed to us that mixture homogenisation and VE were very good. I didn't build the engine, the bottom end was standard, the head and cam (same cam as Garry's I believe) were from QEP and installed by the ownere, but timed by me. I designed and installed the inlet and TB set up and mapped it. The rollers were calibrated against Dyno figures which we are in good faith to be reliable.

[smckeown 1]

The only reason it's going to be sold is that it's associated with you. So people will be buying a cracking head from a a supplier I cannot be associated with for all the reasons / quotes available on this forum for everyone to see. Sometimes having a cracking product is not enough, you need good after sales support also. It's a genuine question regarding is the tail off regarding torque as per the design, but something you have not answered. That's unacceptable. So I have already paid for an alternative head that has proven results time and time again. No need for guesswork or being in the dark anymore.

[pdd144c 0]

Don't be sucked in by claims that a Pumaracing head is as good as the best you can get.

 

Quite a few people are...

[johnrobertgordon 0]

There are some very petty poeple on this forum who need to get a grip of themselves, this is getting well out of hand.

I don't think it is wise to post comments about people's work on places like this as its up to people to for there own opinions, it could be damaging to peoples buisness which is not nice. I know in the post abouve Sean you have said the head is a cracking one.

I know there are many other members of the forum with engines/heads from PR and they are very happy with them.

I have had a whole heap of trouble with a company I found whilst on this forum and I will not slate them on here as it is not fair.

Edited December 18, 2006 by johnrobertgordon

[smckeown 1]

I agree, we shouldn't be slating him. I go out of my way not to as he does a good enough job himself. It does annoy me people use threads like this to take a pop, it givem them 5 mins of fame before the thread gets removed.

[S33GAV 0]

Yippee. You'll sell everything good about the engine and then you can whinge at someone else when it doesn't go half as well. The words 'hatter', 'mad' and 'as a' spring to mind in no particular order.

There's a lot of words that spring to mind about you too, but I'll keep them to myself.

[johnrobertgordon 0]

What's your problem S33GAV, Have you had problems with an engine from PR also?

[S33GAV 0]

What's your problem S33GAV, Have you had problems with an engine from PR also?

My problem is I don't like the way he posts on here, simple. People act like he's some kind of god and for some strange reason people accept the way he communicates with people.

Edited December 18, 2006 by S33GAV

[maturin23 10]

I've just read this thread through - there's clearly some people here that have had commercial contact with Dave Baker and have issues that they want to air.

 

I'm not sure whether posting one here is the right way of doing it, but a lot of this has come into the public domain and once it's out it won't go away. Personally if I were DB I wouldn't have answered these questions publically or entered on open debate - but there's all sorts in this world.

 

What's really out of order IMHO are repeated unpleasant and personal posts by people like S33GAV who are merely irritated by his rather blunt posting style. As far as I can see he's just a spectator who is using what was a original technical post as an opportunity to vent his irritaion to DB's posting style.

 

I'm no apologist for anyone on this board - but why make a difficult situation worse just because you don't like the way someone writes? I doubt you'd be such a big man in the real world!

Edited December 18, 2006 by maturin23

[chunkymonkey 0]

I doubt you'd be such a big man in the real world!

 

there is so much truth in that.

[PumaRacing 2]

The only reason it's going to be sold is that it's associated with you. So people will be buying a cracking head from a a supplier I cannot be associated with for all the reasons / quotes available on this forum for everyone to see. Sometimes having a cracking product is not enough, you need good after sales support also. It's a genuine question regarding is the tail off regarding torque as per the design, but something you have not answered. That's unacceptable.

 

Is your idea of after sales support someone who will put up with you ranting about them in public for month on end and yet still answer your questions? If so then the quicker you sell the entire engine the better. Maybe you've forgotten already that before you had even paid for and collected the engine you were telling everyone on here how you were going to devote your website to ruining my business and how "I'd never work in this town again". You then have 4 or is it 5 threads deleted by the moderators because they were so libellous, complain about various things in a number of others and yet think I'll be there to help when you get stuck?

 

You don't appear to have even the thinnest grip on reality.

 

 

So I have already paid for an alternative head that has proven results time and time again. No need for guesswork or being in the dark anymore.

 

Words fail me. During the build you wouldn't pay for forged pistons or Mi16 liners and now you're throwing money at it like water on things that don't need changing because you have a perceived notion it should produce more power and nothing anyone can say will shake you from this.

 

You're in the grip of some sort of obsession which is gradually taking you over. Logic said cheerio and walked out the door a long time ago. It appears that sanity is already packing its bags and madness is walking down the drive to see if there's a spare room to stay in.

[smckeown 1]

During the build you wouldn't pay for forged pistons or Mi16 liners and now you're throwing money at it like water

 

Absolute rubbish. We agreed to NEW mi16 liners (which later you used some you had lying around) and YOU were the one who didn't want to use forged. Get the facts right barker.

[Anthony 1,003]

Enough is enough now I think - this thread is no longer of benefit to the forum, and has once again slipped into a mudslinging contest