Diesel Tuners - Advise / Had An Idea !

[Greenys_meanies 0]

Is it possible to get more power from a td by adjusting the timing of the pump like you would the spark on a petrol? i've expermented with the cold start advance and it has the effect of advancing the ignition at low revs, makes it slower! at higher revs i can't quite tell if the engine is advancing or not. i'm just wondering if this will work or if i'll have to advance it by moving the pump. anyone have any views on this? will it improve performance? or am i pissing into the wind?

 

Daz

Edited July 20, 2006 by Greenys_meanies

[inferno 1]

yes , a 'twisted pump' increases fuel. ive not personally adjusted one, but a freinds D Turbo 306 had a twisted pump from another car (which went very well) however it only caused a lot of black smoke through overfuelling and not a lot of performance, so it is possible, id say as part of a tuning procedure, but it was obviouse other work was needed to benifit.

[DaveW 6]

I think thats upping the fueling on dervs...

[Greenys_meanies 0]

yes , a 'twisted pump' increases fuel. ive not personally adjusted one, but a freinds D Turbo 306 had a twisted pump from another car (which went very well) however it only caused a lot of black smoke through overfuelling and not a lot of performance, so it is possible, id say as part of a tuning procedure, but it was obviouse other work was needed to benifit.

From what i've read, advancing the pump or twisting it will only advance the timing of putting the fuel in the engine, not increase the fueling. it actually reduces the black smoke because of the increased cylinder pressure and temperature from the fuel igniting earlier. heat is the big problem though, just like pinking on a petrol it'll melt the pistons if you go too far apparently.

 

i think what you may be on about is a tweaked fuel pump with increased fuelling. the excessive black smoke is indeed overfuelling on a car that has not been set up with that pump, all engines are different.

 

other work includes, a ported and polished head, inlet, and turbo. increased boost, cossie intercooler with spray bar, more fuel, water injection, relocated air filter, s/s large bore competion exhaust (custom made), removed power steering and a modified alternator.(all to be done soon)

 

Any more views anyone, with regard to timing advance?

 

cheers Daz

Edited July 20, 2006 by Greenys_meanies

[inferno 1]

...

cheers Daz

 

yes thatll be the one... ill leave the derv q's to those that know next time!

[Greenys_meanies 0]

yes thatll be the one... ill leave the derv q's to those that know next time!

Thats ok, it would be nice to have more people who do know.....

[DaveW 6]

try psooc as they have lots of 306 td owners on there...

[PumaRacing 2]

or am i pissing into the wind?

 

Daz

 

Yes

[Greenys_meanies 0]

Yes

but i haven't got wet feet yet!

[petert 586]

I suggest you go and talk with a diesel guru. Engines such as the Discovery TDi and the Pug 505 Turbo, certainly do respond to a tweak. I've been in a TDi that pulls like a big V8. I was absolutely astonished at the torque it had, all from fine tuning the original equipment. No big intercoolers or anything like that. Mind you, he had a temp. probe in the exhaust to keep an eye on things.

[Greenys_meanies 0]

I suggest you go and talk with a diesel guru. Engines such as the Discovery TDi and the Pug 505 Turbo, certainly do respond to a tweak. I've been in a TDi that pulls like a big V8. I was absolutely astonished at the torque it had, all from fine tuning the original equipment. No big intercoolers or anything like that. Mind you, he had a temp. probe in the exhaust to keep an eye on things.

i've tried talking to some companies on this subject, but they either don't know or won't release the information because they arn't making any money!

yep, ive heard about using an EGT probe, cos appently black smoke is hotter than no smoke !?!

 

edit: just found a website :http://www.rollingroadtune.co.uk/dieseltune.htm that says:

 

Diesel Engines without intercooler, and with mechanical injection pump, this is a car that will achieve a very small improvements from increasing boost pressure, advancing and increasing fuel delivery, typically 15 bhp and about 20% more torque.

 

so it's possible.......maybe

 

anyone?

Edited July 21, 2006 by Greenys_meanies

[Guest BrainFluid]

Well...I just replaced the fuel pump on the Td. We didnt have a dial gause so just set it up by scribing it at a place where it worked and then slackened the bolts and twisted the fuel pump untill the engine sounded sweetest at idle. This 'sweet tone' setting also allowed the engine to rev up to the highest revs on the rev counter that Ive seen the car rev up to which is now around the 4800 mark. Highest it went upto before was 4500. This is all without messing with the max engine speed settings or the fueling.

 

The cars now done 700 miles and has not melted away

 

The sweet spot was quite apparant btw but you will need two of you to set it up and the pump can be a bugger to twist with the fuel lines attached to it but it can be done by just slackening the 3 nuts on the left of the pump AND the forth nut to the far back right of the pump (haynes forgets to mention that nut)

 

[Greenys_meanies 0]

so a bit like setting up a dizzy on a petrol car, listening for it to sound just right...... cheers for that brain.

 

Daz

[Guest BrainFluid]

Yup, the sound matches visually with the rev counter reading happy at idle too.

[DTORU 0 1 Cars]

first off is it a turbo diesel or a diesel, then you need to find out which diesel pump you have fitted a lucas or bosch, as the adjuster you need to increase are in different places? Do not alter you diesel pump timing as this will just advance the pump and it will run like a bag of crap, i wont increase the fueling in any way. There settings on the pump to do this job!

 

find out what pump and i can tell you m8

 

205 1.8 GTI DT

 

Thanks

DTORU

Edited July 21, 2006 by Dangertootherroadusers

[Guest BrainFluid]

first off is it a turbo diesel or a diesel, then you need to find out which diesel pump you have fitted a lucas or bosch, as the adjuster you need to increase are in different places?

DTORU

 

Hey Danger, were on about the actual timing of the pump, which involes turning the whole pump on its axis, regardless of pump. Which will be the lucas pump most likely. I aint yet seen an xud7t with a bosch pump.

 

All I'm saying is that it is possible to time the pump up by hand, ear, and eye.

 

Just make sure you scribe the pump and the metal sheet next to it if your just altering an existing pumps timing so you can always get back to that starting point.

 

If your replacing the pump scribe it were you can get the motor running and work from there.

 

Also it seemed as if the timing advanced when the pump was swung towards the engine and retarded when swung away from the engine. Thats what it felt like anway.

 

[Owain1602 0]

You certainly can not adjust fuel quantity by just turning the pump. All you're doing is altering the timing, which might do some benefit if coupled with other modifications. Scribing the pump normaly isnt accurate enough to keep the pump timing, you need to do it with the DTI to get it spot on. All advancing your pump is gonna do is create diesel knock which makes the engine sound really hard. It can also make it much harder to start the engine. To be honest i wouldnt bother, especially with a mechanical pump and not the most refined turbo technology. But, each to their own.

[Greenys_meanies 0]

why not tune it Owain? people tune Xs's and i've nearly got the same power as standard, it it will have a lot more when it's finished! It won't cause diesel knock with a small advance cos the pump does that itself when it's cold. diesel knock is the same as pinking on a petrol anyway. i am using a lot of other mods when it's finished. do you really need a DTI cos i have tuned petrol by ear and with a timing light and it was about right.

 

DTORU, read the post properly and all your questions will be answered. the 205 only had the lucas/cav pump. timing not fueling.

 

anyway i've found the cam timings for anyone's info:

Io 4.30 btdc

Ic 20 abdc

Eo 39 bbdc

Ec 4 atdc

Cam is a 204.3/223. pretty rubbish really. wonder if you can get a high lift/ long duration cam?

 

also the standard dynamic advance is 12 degrees btdc. non-turbo's run 14 degrees.

 

how much do petrol pugs get advanced by from standard?

 

Daz

[Greenys_meanies 0]

Well...I just replaced the fuel pump on the Td. We didnt have a dial gause so just set it up by scribing it at a place where it worked and then slackened the bolts and twisted the fuel pump untill the engine sounded sweetest at idle. This 'sweet tone' setting also allowed the engine to rev up to the highest revs on the rev counter that Ive seen the car rev up to which is now around the 4800 mark. Highest it went upto before was 4500. This is all without messing with the max engine speed settings or the fueling.

 

The cars now done 700 miles and has not melted away

 

The sweet spot was quite apparant btw but you will need two of you to set it up and the pump can be a bugger to twist with the fuel lines attached to it but it can be done by just slackening the 3 nuts on the left of the pump AND the forth nut to the far back right of the pump (haynes forgets to mention that nut)

 

Brainfluid, i've just had a thought, your max revs has increased,yes? and you have advanced the fuel timing, yes? so the fuel is getting squirted in earlier and able to make more revs due to this. wonder if this has move the powerband/ max torque/max power? spoke to a guy today from a rolling road and he says that big gains can be had from advancing the timing, but with other mods, so therefore timing will enhance the mods.

 

What do you think?

 

Daz

[Owain1602 0]

Its blatantly obvious that gains can be made, its just a matter of deciding what you want to do and how much you want to spend. Really you need a DTI to set the pump timing because its tiny fractions between being crap and being what it should be, but if your gonna be messing about with things then you dont want to be using the peugeot spec for needle lift @TDC cos its a compromise spec. Im not saying you shouldnt tune it....just saying i wouldn't bother.

[Greenys_meanies 0]

Thanks. i understand what you are saying, i'm just trying to get the max out of the engine cos i'm curious like that. ive got to get the other mods done first then go from there.

 

Daz

[Guest BrainFluid]

Brainfluid, i've just had a thought, your max revs has increased,yes? and you have advanced the fuel timing, yes? so the fuel is getting squirted in earlier and able to make more revs due to this. wonder if this has move the powerband/ max torque/max power? spoke to a guy today from a rolling road and he says that big gains can be had from advancing the timing, but with other mods, so therefore timing will enhance the mods.

 

What do you think?

 

Daz

 

Hey Daz. Without a DTI I cannot tell if the new pump I put on is actually advanced or not. It's just in a place where it runs the best (personally i think it has been advance but cannot gaurentee it) but yes, with the car standing and testing full revs, the car now revs 300rpm more than it did but the car drives a little more willingly but I took the head of and de-coked it, valves and all so who knows! Sorry I cannot be more specific

 

A DTI is only around £20 - £30 on ebay though it comes without a stand...Then all thats needed is a piece of metal dowel made to the specs that Haynes mentions and it could all be done properly however...

 

I think that Owain is right too...You must be able to tune the motor up by doing all these thing to the fuel pump and getting to grips with it all has been very enlightening for myself, I would just reccomend scribing a mark and having a play with a view to getting a DTI (I'm going to it makes sense).

 

Trouble is with all this added knowlage for myself brings up questions about whats best for when your burning 100% Veg oil...Eventually when I have the perfect Engine/Fuel Pump combo (The XUD9TE by all accounts). Like whats the best Compression Ratio? The best Timing and Fueling etc...But hey, there my thoughts! The XUD7T car seems quite happy on a 50/50 mix at the moment. I got 8000 miles out of the last lucas pump at 80/20 (with mods) so I'm interested in seeing how long this pump will last at 50/50 with no mods (recently found out that the XUD7T does have a fuel heater after all).

 

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