Mi16 Ecu's + Bhp Ratings

[huwjones 0]

Morning all, yet another Mi16 question which probably has a simple answer! Had a good look via the search facility, but nothing answers my question.

 

I know the 1.9 8v and Mi16's had different BHP ratings... Cat, non cat, pre 91 (or whatever ). What were the differences (ECU settings or did they use different cams?), and how can I identify which ECU/engine I have?

 

I have 2 309 GTi's. One was fitted with an engine out of a BX 16v. Pulled like a train above 5K. I think it's a 2 row ECU.

 

I recently broke up a 1991 405 Mi16x4. The owners manual said it was a 155 bhp version. I want to fit this engine into a mint 309 I recently bought, but if it's down on power a little, I'd rather fit the other one.

 

To clarify:

 

What were the different power ratings of Mi16 engines?

 

How to identify which is which?

 

If I have a 'low power' Mi, can I take parts off a 'high power' Mi16 to get the power back up?

 

One extra question... 2 and 3 row ECU's... is that 2 and 3 rows of pins?

 

Thanks!

 

Huw

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

All the aluminium block 1.9 Mi16s were rated at 160bhp, the later 2.0 1992-on was 150/155bhp.

 

There were little differences though in ECUs on each engine and the BX apparently has a slightly different cam/timing but all about same power.

[huwjones 0]

Really? That's handy!

 

I assumed they'd be like the 8 valvers, with several different versions....

 

Thanks!

[Jonmurgie 2]

One extra question... 2 and 3 row ECU's... is that 2 and 3 rows of pins?

Yep, that's exactly what it refers to

[Super Josh 4]

All the aluminium block 1.9 Mi16s were rated at 160bhp

 

Almost right, the later low compression Ally block 1.9 'DFW' engine produced 148 bhp and was designed to run on 95 RON fuel.

 

 

Yep, that's exactly what it refers to

 

Try and get the later 3 row ECU, as this has a knock sensor in the engine and is the better of the two.

 

 

 

Josh

[Anthony 1,002]

Almost right, the later low compression Ally block 1.9 'DFW' engine produced 148 bhp and was designed to run on 95 RON fuel.

99% of the engines in the UK were the full-fat high-caffeine D6C 160hp engines though, and the same goes with the management parts that you'll find for sale. Indeed, besides the imported batch of "new" engines that yours came from, I'm not sure I've ever knowingly seen another DFW 148hp engine in this country...

[huwjones 0]

Hmm, I'm pretty sure both my ECU's are 2 row.

 

I'm guessing the 3 row can alter the timing to suit the fuel if it has a knock sensor? In which case, would it be needing a coil pack - rather than a dizzy? If this is the case, I'm guessing the ECU parameters on the 3 row units are better for re-mapping...?

 

I'm sure I have the diagrams for a D6C and a DFW, was wondering what the DFW was all about...

 

Thanks lads

 

P.S. anyone know of a 309 that's been converted to Mi16 and kept the air con? Was thinking of trying it, just for fun. I'm guessing the aux belt is going to be a pain in the arse though, becasue I'm removing the PAS off that belt . It's a bloody nightmare un-plumbing the engine

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

Yea, as Anthony said they never used the lower comp engine in the UK AFAIK, when CATs became compulsory they changed to the 2.0 engine in the 405Mi16 but not sure about the BX 16v, maybe that had the odd cat XU9J4 engine??

[Super Josh 4]

P.S. anyone know of a 309 that's been converted to Mi16 and kept the air con? Was thinking of trying it, just for fun. I'm guessing the aux belt is going to be a pain in the arse though, becasue I'm removing the PAS off that belt . It's a bloody nightmare un-plumbing the engine

 

Well I have an Mi 205 and have kept the AC You will need a shortened inlet manifold because of the location of the AC condenser next to the rad, you can't move it as far forward/cut the fan cowling down. You will also need to use a Sanden SD709 compressor off an MI16 engine, rather than the SD 508 that the 8V runs, this also has the added advantage of giving the system a little more poke . The pipes connect to it the same and it also means that you can keep the harmonic balancer in the MI crank pulley, rather than swapping to the double width 8V pulley. Also means you have a little more room down the drivers side of the engine. The SD508 has a two pin connector with supply and ground, whereas the SD709 only has a single spade connector with the supply and grounds through the block, so you will need to change that on your loom.

You also need to connect the supply from the compressor to a pin on the ECU. This increases the response of the IACV to cope with the compressor switching in and out. It is a different pin depending on whether you are running the earlier 2 row 4.1 system or the later 3 row 1.3.

 

Drop me a PM if you need any more details on fitment or the relevant pins for each ECU.

 

 

Josh

[huwjones 0]

Brilliant, that's very useful info! Will PM you for some details in a minute

[KRISKARRERA 2 1 Cars]

I recently broke up a 1991 405 Mi16x4. The owners manual said it was a 155 bhp version. I want to fit this engine into a mint 309 I recently bought, but if it's down on power a little, I'd rather fit the other one.

That's because it's post 91 and has the knock sensor so I think they would have tested it with unleaded 95 octane fuel.

[d-9 0]

Josh, he doesnt have the clearance issues because its a 309. Be good to know which pin needs wiring up on the 4.1 ecu

 

cheers

[Simes 248 2 Cars]

I'm guessing the 3 row can alter the timing to suit the fuel if it has a knock sensor? In which case, would it be needing a coil pack

 

No.

[Super Josh 4]

Josh, he doesnt have the clearance issues because its a 309. Be good to know which pin needs wiring up on the 4.1 ecu

 

cheers

 

Yeah Doug, I was thinking about that last night. Obviously Peugeot fitted the Mi in the 309 and would have been able to keep the rad in the stock location with a full length manifold, suppose another reason why it wasn't fitted to the 205. Anyway onto the ECU pins

 

2 row 4.1 system ECU pin Can't find the Email with this in after PC was re-imaged, will look it up later

 

3 row 1.3 system ECU pin 40

 

 

Josh

[petert 583]

That's because it's post 91 and has the knock sensor so I think they would have tested it with unleaded 95 octane fuel.

 

I could be wrong, but I don't believe the Mi16x4 ever had a 3 row ECU, as they had a special version of the 2 row with rev limit extended to 7400.

 

The 3 row diagram can be found here: http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=58265

 

As Kris said, later UK cars did have a 3 row ECU with knock sensor but no O2 sensor. I can confirm this as I have a 3 row UK harness in the shed. Beware that if you do fit a 3 row ECU, you MUST fit the knock sensor.

Edited July 20, 2006 by petert

[Ryan 99]

2 row 4.1 system ECU pin Can't find the Email with this in after PC was re-imaged, will look it up later

 

According to what somebody on PSOOC told me: The signal from the AC goes to pin 29, and the coil for the compressor relay goes to pin 32. It might be worth swapping it for a diode-protected relay to be on the safe side, as I don't know if the ECU is surge-protected internally.

 

Whats the reason for needing to swap the compressors? Is it that the pulleys don't line up, or does the 508 foul the front crossmember?

[jackherer 543]

Obviously Peugeot fitted the Mi in the 309 and would have been able to keep the rad in the stock location with a full length manifold

 

does the 309 GTI16 have the same rad and fan cowling as the 8V though? The reason I question that is because the BX 16V has a much smaller rad than other BXs and its located a LOT further forward too.

[Ryan 99]

The rad is the same, the cowling is different, but I don't know how or why.

[Anthony 1,002]

I could be wrong, but I don't believe the Mi16x4 ever had a 3 row ECU, as they had a special version of the 2 row with rev limit extended to 7400.

Friend of mine broke a Mi16x4 for the engine and it had a 3-row loom, and I've got a Mi16x4 sourced engine (tale-tale rear mount difference) and seen another that has a knock sensor on it. Obviously both could have been retrofitted, but I would suspect not.

 

Did the Mi16x4 ECU have a different part number btw, as logically it should but I don't recall ever seeing it listed - only the standard Mi16 part numbers of 119, 125, 139, 140?

[Higgy 0]

Yep my 1991 Mi16x4 engine has 3-row ECU.

 

I've just put my spare 1989 Mi16x4 engine in (which was 2-row) and swapped over the knock sensor.

 

I might be able to read the 3-row ECU number, I'll try and check tonight.

 

Maybe ECU is different to make use of the different x4 exhaust cam?

 

Remember you need to tap the block and make an extension for the rear engine mount (I have a few spares ones if needed).

 

See HERE!

 

Higgy.

[petert 583]

The two row ECU from my Mi16x4 is a 139. I've since upgraded it to a 161 3 row. complete with knock and lamda sensors, that came from a Citroen factory race car. It has a 7500 limit. Naturally I try to avoid it.

 

So do the 3 row Mi16x4 ECU's have a higher rev. limit?

Edited July 20, 2006 by petert

[Anthony 1,002]

No idea about the 3-row Mi16x4 rev limit, but I've seen plenty of 139 ECU's in standard Mi16's - so I guess there's no easy way of identifying them without running them up and pulling to the limiter...

[Super Josh 4]

According to what somebody on PSOOC told me: The signal from the AC goes to pin 29, and the coil for the compressor relay goes to pin 32. It might be worth swapping it for a diode-protected relay to be on the safe side, as I don't know if the ECU is surge-protected internally.

 

Whats the reason for needing to swap the compressors? Is it that the pulleys don't line up, or does the 508 foul the front crossmember?

 

That would tally with the wiring diagram that you posted in the link that PeterT posted up. Yes, interesting about using a diode protected relay, I've seen a schematic for one of the Motronic ECU's before. Would be interesting to have a look at the AC input/output pins and work out how this part of the circuit path performs, maybe something that I will look into when I've got some spaer time. I also wonder if the Motronic ECU has the ability to kill the AC when you floor the throttle, for max power, like all of the modern systems do. I only have one pin on the ecu connected to provide the IACV increased response, so can't confirm this.

Onto the compressor, you can fit an SD508, but, as you know, it needs the double width 8V pulley fitting. The single width Mi pulley incorporates a harmonic damper and I wanted to keep this, hence the fitting of an Mi SD709

 

 

Josh

[Higgy 0]

so I guess there's no easy way of identifying them without running them up and pulling to the limiter...

 

So when you had mine off the limiter it was for scientific purposes then

 

I think my rev counter is out as i have a feeling it hits the limiter at around 6900rpm.

 

I remember my housemate looking at the speedo when I was gunning down a slip road, he said the speedo was having difficulty keeping up (not surprised the wobble piece of sh*t!)

[Ryan 99]

I was told that the mi16 ECU does shut off the A/C at high revs. Not because of power but because the compressor is only rated to 6k rpm, which because of the pulley gearing is probably about 5k-5.5k engine rpm. It may also cut out at WOT and possibly high coolant temperature, but I've never seen any concrete info for either.