16v205 9 Posted July 17, 2006 Hi Ran into a small problem fitting the cams to my gti-6 engine, they dont fit lol. Its not that bad really, ive had to shave a few mm of the inside of the head with a dremel near every tappet which is expected, but the cam lobes now foul the oil spray bars. Not so bad on the exhaust side but ive taken a pic of the inlet cam below. QEP are waiting to hear back from catcams but as ive got a week off work and now cant play cars for a few hours Im getting impatient and would like to hear if anyone on here has had a similar experience? Also timed the engine in last night and this morning, catcams recommended timing is 2.0mm lift on the inlet and 1.55mm on the exhaust @ tdc. Found tdc with the head off and drill marked the block, ive timed the engine as close as I can and it reads 2.0mm inlet and 1.52mm exhaust @ tdc. Can not get 1.55 no matter how much Ive tried. Is that close enough or should I persist and try to get 1.55mm dead on? Rich Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
James_R 3 Posted July 17, 2006 If you've got time to spare while Matt gets back to you, can't hurt trying a bit more. at the lobes hitting the oil bar, I want some though Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
16v205 9 Posted July 17, 2006 I know this might sound dodgy but whats the likelyhood of running without oil spray bars in this engine? When the cams hit the spraybars it physicaly lifts the rocker cover up around 1mm, am at a loss now as need to have engine in and running by the 24th july for mapping on 25th Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anthony 1,003 Posted July 17, 2006 Can't speak for GTi-6's in particular, but other engines having a blocked spray bar (ie no lubrication) results in knackered cams in a short space of time... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
16v205 9 Posted July 17, 2006 Cheers Anthony, was thinking there might be a possability of increased cam wear but didnt know how much by. Doesnt sound like I want to run that way from your experiance's. Im getting quite aggravated now as I cant see an alternative. I cant raise the oil spray bars out the way as the rocker cover gets in the way. Only thing I can think of at the minute is maybe use rubber washers in the dowels on top of the bearings to raise the spray bar above the cams, then have a groove machined into both rocker covers for the spray bar to fit into. Bit extreme and costly but I cant see an alternative. Will have to wait to hear off QEP, but im running out of time to be mapped, so may miss Cadwell Park aswell. Then i'd be pissed Rich Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Craigb 2 Posted July 18, 2006 Cheers Anthony, was thinking there might be a possability of increased cam wear but didnt know how much by. Doesnt sound like I want to run that way from your experiance's. Mine ran for 300 miles with a blocked spray bar , after which one of the lobes was ruined ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
16v205 9 Posted July 18, 2006 Cheers, Looking closer at the head today it wouldnt be possible to run without a spray bar as the head is made up of chambers, so I wouldnt get oil sloshing around and covering all the tappets. Only way to make them fit is to extend the oil spray bars upwards off the cam caps. Unsure how to do this though as they need to be lifted a fair way up. Rich Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
16v205 9 Posted July 18, 2006 Right. My Dad and myself have spent the night in the garage trying to work out a way to get them to fit. We made up some engineer drawings that im working on tonight and will be visiting a local machine shop tomorrow to see if they can re-create what were thinking. We come to the conclusion that the only real way to increase the gap between the cam lobe and the spray bar was to lift them. We have drawn up a series of 'top hat' style adapters that should lift the rail. Unfortunatly the whole of the rocker cover is not hollow, it has a flat at the cambelt side so we will need to adjust the spray bar. Ill post back here tomorrow if we have any luck Rich Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
James_R 3 Posted July 19, 2006 (edited) sounds like the most simple solution, are you using an interferance fit on to the head or going to have grooves and rubber washers put on them to seal? [_ _] ..[ ] kinda thing I'm guessing?? Which part number are these cat cams?? James Edited July 19, 2006 by James_R Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
16v205 9 Posted July 19, 2006 Hi James, Yeah thats what weve come up with. Ive been driving round redditch today trying to find a little engineering place to knock some up for us but without any luck yet. Thankfully Matt @ QEP has come to the rescue again and im going to take the engine down there unit tomorrow morning. He's offered to turn up the spacers required, ill be sending him the measurments we took last night. Rich Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest downsy Posted July 19, 2006 good luck with that mate, wouldn't mind seeing some pics of the end result when its done. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
James_R 3 Posted July 19, 2006 Good luck with it Rich, want to see it at cadwell Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
16v205 9 Posted July 20, 2006 Bit of an update and im happy again lol First of all ive got to say a big thank you to Matt @ QEP for taking the time to see me this morning, and also offering to help sort out the issue. So we went to QEP today, a 400 mile round trip, to show them the cams in the head and as they offered to help get around the issue. After they had spoke to Catcams and by there own experience it was suggested the oil spray bars were useful but not really necessary due to the design. Apparantly the hydraulic tappets only use a small amount of oil, and will create a oil puddle on top of the tappet that the cam will splash through. The oil in the cam bearings will also aid filling the head with oil as it squirts out. It was decided the oil spray bar was to be removed and a plug tapped into the bearing to keep the oil pressure up. It meant they didnt need to turn up the adapters we had measured and mess round with the rocker cover. They are confident this will be fine, so sure that they have offered to replace the cams should they be worn due to lack of lubricant. Now all ive got to do is get it fitted before monday as its being mapped tuesday Rich Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest downsy Posted July 21, 2006 wow thats a bit of a result, they must be pretty confident it will be ok without the spray bar. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
16v205 9 Posted July 24, 2006 Brum Brum, got the car started tonight. Couldnt get it to fire properly on the original gti-6 coil packs so had to bodge a single coil pack and ht leads on the block in preperation of mapping tomorrow. Its a bit of a gamble as piston-valve clearance is very close but we'll have to see what happens at Emerald Rich Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
petert 586 Posted July 25, 2006 Its a bit of a gamble as piston-valve clearance is very close but we'll have to see what happens at Emerald Rich how close is close? It would be a great shame to see an engine go bang if you knew you could do something about it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
James_R 3 Posted July 25, 2006 Good luck to rish, be interesting to see the power it makes when he gets back from DW tongiht Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anthony 1,003 Posted July 25, 2006 Just heard the result, and it's damned impressive I'll let Rich spill the beans when he gets back... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
James_R 3 Posted July 25, 2006 I've just heard too, got to say might jealous Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shevy 4 Posted July 25, 2006 Just heard the result, and it's damned impressive I'll let Rich spill the beans when he gets back... Drop me a PM anthony really keen to know the result. I'm guessing around 200BHP Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Anthony 1,003 Posted July 25, 2006 I'm guessing around 200BHP "Higher, higher" shout the crowd at the suggestion of a mere 200hp.... I'm sure Rich and Erica will be on later this evening when they're back from Emerald to reveal all Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALEX 98 1 Cars Posted July 25, 2006 Ive had a blocked spray bar hole aswell though it was the 8 valve. takes about 500 miles before the cam lobe wares off. Then those bits of cam lobe end up in the crank bearings, oil pump and also ruin the head cam bearings, which are machined to suit. The Mi16 spray bars are different the rear one has no holes as the engine is tilted so the rear Cam is submerged in oil. Don't know about the gti-6 engine though. I'd fit that spray bar, it's there for a reason. Or at least find proof that it's ok to run the engine without the spray bar. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PumaRacing 2 Posted July 25, 2006 Bit of an update and im happy again lol First of all ive got to say a big thank you to Matt @ QEP for taking the time to see me this morning, and also offering to help sort out the issue. So we went to QEP today, a 400 mile round trip, to show them the cams in the head and as they offered to help get around the issue. After they had spoke to Catcams and by there own experience it was suggested the oil spray bars were useful but not really necessary due to the design. Apparantly the hydraulic tappets only use a small amount of oil, and will create a oil puddle on top of the tappet that the cam will splash through. The oil in the cam bearings will also aid filling the head with oil as it squirts out. It was decided the oil spray bar was to be removed and a plug tapped into the bearing to keep the oil pressure up. It meant they didnt need to turn up the adapters we had measured and mess round with the rocker cover. They are confident this will be fine, so sure that they have offered to replace the cams should they be worn due to lack of lubricant. Now all ive got to do is get it fitted before monday as its being mapped tuesday Rich I don't have a gti-6 head in the workshop to examine but I have to say I'm dubious about running without a spray bar. There are two basic lubrication designs of OHC head. Those that have the drain channels back to the sump situated higher than the tops of the lifters and those that don't. If the drain channels are higher then the lifters will be covered with oil at all times and the cam lobes will get lubricated as they run through it. If the drain channels are lower then the cam needs a spray bar. I just don't see that the factory would use a spray bar if it wasn't needed and if it is needed then the cams won't survive without it. If the cam lobes go they'll take the lifters with them and the swarf may well wreck the bottom end and the cam bearings in the head. In effect time for a complete new engine. However it will be an interesting experiment and if you find the cams survive then other people will be able to benefit from your experience. Please keep us informed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
16v205 9 Posted July 25, 2006 Thanks for the advice Puma. We were thinking along the same lines as yourself before visiting QEP, why would peugeot spend money even on something that the engine doesnt need. Ive now had the engine mapped, so will drive the car round for a bit tomorrow and whip the rocker covers off to check for promising oil puddles. Rich Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
