Turbo Conversion

[gti_al 1]

I was all ready to pick up a damaged 405 and do an Mi16 transplant, but a mate from the UK is telling me that it would be easier and cheaper to wack a turbo on my current engine... I know nothing about f/i, but a quick search here has said that my low compression engine should be able to deal with it.

 

Otherwise, what is required to get it working? I have done a search, but haven't found anything definative. It seems that the builds get quite serious, and most of the talk seems to be about forged pistons and bottom ends. I don't want huge hp, but would be happy with it if it improves drivability and a bit more grunt.

 

Before anyone bites my head off for not doing a search, i have. I know my questions are fairly vague, but most threads here have a fair bit of talk of fitting low comp pistons, (which i already have) so i'm just interested in how bits i will need to get it happening..

 

Suggestions?

 

Alistair

Edited May 29, 2006 by gti_al

[Guest davebxgt]

I was all ready to pick up a damaged 405 and do an Mi16 transplant, but a mate from the UK is telling me that it would be easier and cheaper to wack a turbo on my current engine... I know nothing about f/i, but a quick search here has said that my low compression engine should be able to deal with it.

 

Otherwise, what is required to get it working? I have done a search, but haven't found anything definative. It seems that the builds get quite serious, and most of the talk seems to be about forged pistons and bottom ends. I don't want huge hp, but would be happy with it if it improves drivability and a bit more grunt.

 

Before anyone bites my head off for not doing a search, i have. I know my questions are fairly vague, but most threads here have a fair bit of talk of fitting low comp pistons, (which i already have) so i'm just interested in how bits i will need to get it happening..

 

Suggestions?

 

Alistair

 

I reckon one consideration is that you can most likely do the mi16 without much hassle re engineers, whereas you will need to get it all checked out officially if you do a turbo conversion. If you go turbo you will need an aftermarket ecu....costs add up pretty quick once you need to buy a turbo, ecu, custom pipework, etc etc etc. Whereas mi16 -> you buy wreck, swap s*it in -> go driving.

 

Dave

[gti_al 1]

I know. The car will be going onto better management regardless of what engine goes in, and it needs a certificate anyway as the cage/buckets aren't legal.

 

The other issue is that i don't have the space to strip a 405 anymore... My garage has been reclaimed by my parents. When you look at buying an engine through the wreckers it gets really expensive.

 

Plus, some really nasty BOV would piss off all the pug purists so much.

 

As i said, i know nothing about this... My mate and some others from aussiefrogs has been telling me how easily it can be done, (and have done it) so i thought it may be worth looking into.

[sonofsam 5]

Is'nt some one on here selling a low compression engine?

if not skimming your pistons by a millimetre i think lowers compression, or a thicker HG.

other things to consider:

 

TT manifold.

Turbo.

waste gate actuator.

boost controller.

fuel controller or fifth injector set up

oil return pipe for turbo.

custom exhaust.

 

Cant see the pipe work or IC being that expensive, you wont need forged pistons if your not going to crazy.

much more rewarding to build, than just a plug and play Mi16 IMO.

Edited May 29, 2006 by sonofsam

[aw11_hgt 0]

Shipping ot australia could get expensive!

[gti_al 1]

Thanks heaps for that mate - the list is exactly what i was after. And there isn't a huge need for me to ship a low comp down here, as our 205s all ended up with them.

 

I wouldn't mind doing this as it will be unique - I don't think there are any 205tts here, although 205Mi16s aren't that uncommon now.

 

Can someone give me a really basic idea of what a fifth injector is, (i presume it is what it sounds like lol) and where it goes. I have been reading heaps of old threads which refer to it, but none point out the obvious.

[sonofsam 5]

I did see a topic earlier on setting up a fifth injector, so its out there somewere.

yep its what it sounds like,just a single injector goes in the throttle body, so a little fabrication would be needed and i *think* is controlled by a seperate fuel controller or piggy back ecu?

 

Gald i could help

Edited May 29, 2006 by sonofsam

[tom_m 0]

take a look at Henry Yorke's cti, he's done exactly what you're contemplating. search for green skip shouldn't be too hard, especially if you're going to run it on proper management

[gti_al 1]

This is sounding really interesting. I've been looking into the legalities of it today, and i will struggle... but i've been thinking about building a dedicated track car as well, so if it doesn't need to be on the road this is probably quite viable.

 

I'll look into some class regulations and probably have some more questions soon.

[Guest davebxgt]

This is sounding really interesting. I've been looking into the legalities of it today, and i will struggle... but i've been thinking about building a dedicated track car as well, so if it doesn't need to be on the road this is probably quite viable.

 

I'll look into some class regulations and probably have some more questions soon.

 

Whats the point in having a 205 if you can't fang it around the local mountains!!!!

 

Dave

[gti_al 1]

I've got a couple of reasons... I have realised how much of a bastard my car is for everyday stuff, so i've given in and it's getting soundproofed properly, and i'm having the whole rear area (no rear seats) carpeted. I want to get some decent sounds in there too, and retain the standard suspention.

 

But, i have kinda developed a serious desire to get into some low key rallying as well though... That isn't the kind of thing that you can use the everyday car for, so i want to get a second one going with a less compromised setup, and less stress if i pile it into something. If is doesn't need to be registerable it makes everything easier...

 

I would love to play with a f/i setup just to see if it can be done, even if it puts me in a stupid class.

 

(Can you tell i have nearly got my current car how i want it...? Once it gets a better engine i am seriously planning on doing this...)

[gti_al 1]

The time has come to actually start collecting bits for my new engine, and i am seriously keen to have a go at this. Getting it legal shouldn't be as bad as i thought it would be, and it should work out pretty cheap if i get the base engine free...

 

One thing i am curious about is these mysterious fifth injectors. They seem to get bad reviews on here... is this just because whatever controls them is a bit crap compared to a modern ECU? When sonofsan said earlier that you need either the fifth injector, or a fuel controller, does this mean a fuel only ecu and bigger injectors would do the same job?

[TEKNOPUG 3]

The time has come to actually start collecting bits for my new engine, and i am seriously keen to have a go at this. Getting it legal shouldn't be as bad as i thought it would be, and it should work out pretty cheap if i get the base engine free...

 

One thing i am curious about is these mysterious fifth injectors. They seem to get bad reviews on here... is this just because whatever controls them is a bit crap compared to a modern ECU? When sonofsan said earlier that you need either the fifth injector, or a fuel controller, does this mean a fuel only ecu and bigger injectors would do the same job?

 

Yes, you've got it pretty spot on. When the original 205 turbo conversions were released back in the day (late 80's) fully mappable ECU's were either unavailable or prohibitively expensive. Becuase the original ECU was being used, larger injectors were not possible as it would be overfueling at lower revs. So a fifth injector was plumbed into the throttle body. This only activates once a certain rev-limit (or more accurately a certain amount of air due to the turbo boost) is introduced to the throttle body. This is controlled by a black box which has two potentiometers - one for threshold and one for quantity v pressure. These are adjusted to set the desired level of fuel at boost pressures to keep the engine running within a safe AFR. It also uses a mechanical advance in the distributor with a dual diaphragm advance actuator to retard ignition under boost. The system is basically designed to allow the engine to run safely without detonating. It's plus points is that it is simple, reliable and off boost the engine runs like a normal GTi as it is run by the same ECU.

However, it obviously not 3D mapped across the rev-range and is rather clockwork-like. Ditching the 5th injector and running 4 larger injectors and a proper engine management system would allow you to map ignition and fuel across the rev-range and boost settings and allow the engine to run a lot smoother. It would also release another 15-20% power and torque minimum. Obviously it will cost considerably more.

 

Another alternative is to convert to MP3.1 - which will allow you to run the same 5th injector system but with the more advanced OE ECU. I expect that the Aussie cars run MP3.1 anyway if they are all low-comp CAT engines?

 

Have a read through this, is you haven't already http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?s...hl=chip+wizards

[gti_al 1]

Thanks heaps for the detailed reply mate. I don't know much about how forced induction works, but i've been reading up heaps trying to get my head around it. That link is interesting though - i will go over it a couple of times and get my head around it all.

 

My car isn't running MP3.1, but rather the jetronic management... I was thinking that getting the fifth injector setup sent over might not be necessary if i can get a basic fuel only megasquirt going to control the fuel. I suspect that wouldn't work though, as you say the tt system retards the ignition under boost... so the management would need to control fuel and ignition.

 

Perhaps it would be easier just to source the "clockwork" like turbo technics bits from the uk? I'm not after huge bhp - just a bit more power without compromising driveability. Are these bits hard to get hold of?

 

Also, do you have any pics of your setup?

[TEKNOPUG 3]

Sourcing the TT setup would probably be the most striaghtforward as that is designed to run on the jetronic set-up. There are usually some bits and pieces avaible. They aren't off the shelf and there were not that many made, but more and more people are junking the parts to go to mappable ECU's. All you really need is the dizzy and the fuel controller box. You're correct that you can't run a fuel only system as you'd need to retard the ignition also. I know that some people were selling the Dizzy very recently (Mad Professor I think).

 

There are pics on the main forum page but only of engine bays. If you run a search you may find the original TT schematics - including all teh parts used in the conversion. I'll try to email them to you sometime if not.

[mak 0]

If you cant find a tt 5th injector controller you can use an mf2 water injection controller to run a fifth injector...works in a near identical way to the tt controller.

 

A more user friendly guide on setting up the tt injector than teknos link above:

 

To set the injector up properly take the cover of its controller. You will see

two white potentiometers which are labelled 'delta' P and MP on the back of the

circuit board.

 

The one on the left ('delta' P) defines how much fuel the injector sprays. If

you turn this dial fully clockwise you will set the injector to maximum fueling,

this is where I have mine set and it runs nicely. Be aware that fueling is

progressive and not simply on/off as is a common mis conception!

 

The dial on the right (MP) decides when the injector fuels If the dial is turned

fully anticlockwise you need no boost at all for the injector to fuel and it

will be doing so even if the map sensor is readuing a vacuum. Obviously if the

dial is turned fully clockwise you need a massive amount of pressure to get it

to fuel (when i say massive i mean you wont be able to bring the injector in

just by blowing down the pipe).

 

If you remove the air take of for the map sensor from the manifold you should be

able to bring the injector in and out by gently blowing down the pipe. At this

setting the potentiometer should be set to just past the 12 oclock position.

 

If your car still runs pants under boost after setting the injector up properly

i would suggest either your map sensor is shagged, the control unit isnt wired

up propoerly or has a faulty circuit board, the advance and retard in your dizzy

is screwed or its a non related tt problem.

 

You can check the map sensor by taking the voltages of the three black wires

that go to the control unit. Two of these should change when you blow/suck down

the map sensor pipe. The voltages arent very high, about 2 to 4V from memory,

but you will see a definite change if its working.

[TEKNOPUG 3]

Are these the setting that you use Mak? Gonna be checking and adjusting my boost soon so may try setting it for maixmum fuel.

[mak 0]

yep.

 

Will be interested to hear what you think! sometimes it smells a little rich, but it seems to run fine, and I aslo get a nice little gurgle coming of throttle

[TEKNOPUG 3]

yep.

 

Will be interested to hear what you think! sometimes it smells a little rich, but it seems to run fine, and I aslo get a nice little gurgle coming of throttle

 

 

It seems to run fine at the moment, although I don't know what boost it's at. The engine (or something) makes some rather unpleasent noises above 5.5k in second but the rest of the gears are fine upto 6k.

 

I'd rather be running rich on a charged engine than lean, that's for sure!

 

(I haven't actually adjusted it yet - will do so at the weekend)

Edited August 1, 2006 by TEKNOPUG

[TEKNOPUG 3]

Dunno if this is any interest to you?

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PEUGEOT-309-205-GTI-...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

Can only assume that it's a turbo-technics conversion.

[johnrobertgordon 0]

the manifold on that looks like the one off a 406. it dont look like a TT manifold thats for sure.

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

Back to answering the original question, as Tom says, it sounds like you are after exactly what I have done to my green skip (Low compression 1.9 CTI - XU9J1/AZ). There are no internal mods as it doesn't really need any (apart from i changed the head gasket to a Spesso one while I was at it). My engine runs fine on Motronic 3.2 from a 406 SRI / Xantia 2.0 CT / XM (XU10J2TE). It also runs the manifold, turbo, and injectors from that engine. I didn't like the "primative" TT set up with the 5th injector and having the ECU map the fuelling properly based on a lamda reading as opposed to the "When rev's = x then chuck some more fuel in". However the TT set up saves quite a bit of hassle in swopping ECU's etc as it piggy backs on the existing system.

 

It only runs about 0.5 bar (7psi) at the moment but the power delivery is smooth across the rev range with no nasty spikes etc. The cam profile suits this turbo application too (XU9JAZ 122bhp catted GTI has a different head to mine). Mated to a longer gearbox it makes a cracking little car with the potential to raise the boost in the future if need be.

 

There are a few topics about it kicking about on here like this and probably some more bits posted by me. I have yet to write a full run down of my car but will be doing in the future for Torque mag And I haven't a clue on the BHP as I am more interested in the torque pull

[gti_al 1]

Cheers Henry. From the pics/vids i've seen of your car it looks fantastic.

 

A couple of questions though - are you running the 406 head? If not, are the exhaust manifolds easily available in the uk? We didn't get 406 turbos here, (and only a handful of citroen ones) so i won't be able to get bits locally... Was there much else that had to be done to get it working?

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

Head - no, just the original XU9J1/AZ one. Low compression is in the head on the XU9J1/AZ whereas the low compression is in the pistons on a XU10J2TE.

 

Exhaust manifolds - yes they are available as most people seem to shun them as a terrible design etc in the UK. However I don't know of anyone running a 2.0 engine with anything other than that, despite all the talk of DP engineering ones and Turbo Technics ones (someone prove me wrong please and tell me if it makes as much difference, with stats, as has been theorised on here ). www.205parts.com sell TT style manifolds new and can ship if required.

 

Other bits - engine reloom to put the ECU somewhere sensible and stop the loom where it comes through the bulkhead sitting on top of the turbo!. Move some fuel pipes for safety. 3 bar fuel pressure reg. "Kinky" downpipe needs to be made to get through the bulkhead as the XU10J manifold sits offset to the 205 exhaust channel down the bulkhead. Need to find / make a bracket for the throttle position sensor as it works back to front on the Motronic.

[gti_al 1]

Sounds good. I won't be chasing huge hp, so i can't see the standard manifold being a huge problem.