Mi16 Idle Problems And Fuel Relay Cutting Out

[Veero 1]

Idle problems and fuel relay cutting out

 

Sorry to post another one of my Mi16 problem posts but it wasnt really suited to my thread in General Chat.

 

I think my ICV is probably kapput. The car starts up, runs at about 1k revs but immediately climbs and idles at 2k revs, taking off the vacuum hose from the ICV to the manifold and putting a thumb over the hole the revs drop to 950-1000, although it chugs a bit.

 

With everything plugged in and running, unplugging the loom connection has no effect on the idle. I assume it should do something, There are about 4-5 volts across the two pins. The idle position switch is set according to the Haynes manual as are the butterfly stop screws. Doug mentioned an idle air bleed screw but I cant find any others to adjust on the TB.

 

The other problem is a bit more serious. It displayed these symptoms when I first drove it but they went away and didnt return for a hundred or so miles. Now it has become un-driveable. The car reaches temperature fairly quickly if stationary and gradually creeps up if driving around. The time interval that it starts after seems totally random, it started after about 5 minutes while I was trying to sort the idle out yesterday.

 

What happens is it has a couple of random misfires, just slight hiccups in power transfer nothing major and then after maybe 5-6 of these the fuel relay next to the ECU starts opening and closing rapidly, switching the fuel pump on and off and I pull over, not wanting to damage anything. Even hard wiring the fuel pump supply it misfires and judders.

 

After pulling over, leave it to calm/cool down for 10 minutes and its ok again. Couple of minutes later it starts again and repeat as above. I cleaned up all the earth points on Sunday and there seems to be a reasonable connection between them all.

 

Does anyone have any ideas what is going on here?

 

I have a few ideas:

Dodgy fuel pump

Dry joint in the wiring somewhere, possibly faulty ECU

 

Thanks for any help anyone can suggest

 

Veero

[SweetBadger 94]

I know how you feel mate, my rebuilt MI had to come apart after 150 miles due to an ovaled rod that I didn't spot, so it's sitting there looking very sorry for itself with the sump and cylinder head off at the moment. Very close to giving up on sunday, but after putting so much time and money in already it worth sticking with it!

 

Sounds like something dodgy going on with the electrical side of things, i'm not sure if a DC readout from the pins to the ICV will tell you much because if I remember corectly it's driven by a PWM waveform (AC) I'd definitely replace the fuel pump relay before looking at the ecu and if you want I've got a spare working idle control valve that you can have for a fiver. Stick with it, it'll be all the more satisfying when it finally works...

Edited April 24, 2006 by SweetBadger

[Veero 1]

Yeah I know, so much time and effort has gone into it. Im sure once it is working all this will be forgiven.

 

As for the relay I've tried 2 other relays in there and the same thing happens. They were the same type of relays from the fusebox, one was the E/W relay, not sure what the other was but they both work fine.

 

Ill take your word for it on the readout. Also if you take PayPal is there any chance you could get the ICV in the post ASAP? PM me your details if you can.

 

Thanks

 

Veero

[d-9 0]

If its still dodgy at the end of the week, leave the keys and jon and I'll take a look at it on friday in between handing in our masterpieces and going to the pub.

[Veero 1]

Fairly simple

 

I R N00B

 

 

Plug the ECU temp sensor and the ICV round the right way, then it might actually work

 

Veero

[Veero 1]

No still runs like a sack of crap. No doing the symptoms described above anymore tho.

 

Hesitation on 3K revs. As it appears to reach normal temp it starts spluttering and eventually dies. Unplug the ECU temp sensor and it no longer dies, but still doesnt run right.

 

Any ideas?

 

Veero

[ada205 2]

As for the relay I've tried 2 other relays in there and the same thing happens. They were the same type of relays from the fusebox, one was the E/W relay, not sure what the other was but they both work fine.

Hi mate. Take it your talking about and using the original 205 pump and relay? Was wondering because you mention you'd tried a few other relays like the e/w. I've had a few fuel pump relay problems, in particuler on a 1.9 i had a few years back. On mine, the pump relay was totally different to any other relay on the car or in the fuse box, with more pins. This was comfirmed by Peugeot, and the price was way higher than the norm for a relay, being around £70! Iwent to the tat yard!

 

Symptoms of my fault were some times just a nasty miss, but usually a nasty miss for a few seconds followed by complete cut out. The car would not start for 5 or 10 minutes after if left to it's own devices, but would start straight away if you stuck your hand under the dash and gave the relay a good thump!

 

Hope this helps with some of your problems mate. Good luck.

[Veero 1]

If you're referring to the tachymetric relay (under the dash and with about 7? pins) Im not using that set up at all. The fuel pump is powered by a cable from the power pin on the tachymetric plug, wired into the relay spade on the BX loom and controlled by the ECU on the BX loom now.

 

I think the fuel relay problem has totally gone now, after plugging the ECU temp sender and ICV in the correct way round.

 

However it is still misfiring under load and undriveable. As far as i can tell all the sensors are now wired correctly. It's running the engine loom from the BX on a Motronic 1.3 3 row ECU.

 

Here's what new:

 

Plugs

Leads

Coil

Dizzy cap

TDC sensor

ECU temp sensor

Thermostat

All gaskets/seals

Bearings main and big end

Piston rings

Injectors (3000 miles from new)

AFM (recon unit, also 3000 miles) swapped for another known working one, same symptons

Rotor (used but cleaned up looks like new)

Oil filter

Fuel filter

Idle position swicth is set as per Haynes.

 

I swapped the AFM and rotor arm over last night and that made no difference.

 

Doug said there is an idle bleed screw on the TB, now I can see the two butterfly stop adjust screws but no more screws, only a hole where one might have been. Surely this couldn't cause those problems?

 

Thanks though Ada.

 

Veero

[Veero 1]

Also brand new ignition module.

[Veero 1]

Right even tried a different ECU and it's exactly the same. Unplug variuos sensors and the diagnostics comes up with the corerct fault code.

 

Now with added dent in the roof, top of the A-pillar. Anyone know if the paintless dent removal people are any good or is there a magic way to sort them? ?

 

Spoke to sandy on Saturday and he suggested that the fuel return pipe might be the problem. I took it off the FPR and blew down it and it was very hard work. Stopped blowing and it blew the air back at me.

 

Could this be the problem? Presumably the fuel return should have little or no resistance back to the tank??

 

Got a replacement TDC sensor on Saturday from a 206 as well and that didn't solve it.

 

Veero

[MikeT 0]

Hi - cant offer any help myself but if your in Southampton why don't you ask Miles of PugRacing/xSport racing (?) if he can help you out.

 

He did my Mi16 conversion and plenty of others so I'm sure hes the man to ask

 

Good luck sorting it out

 

Mike

[Veero 1]

Cheers Mike, unfortunately it got me back to Exeter before it really stopped working, so it's stuck here

 

Tried a known working coil last night and still no joy. Tonight's fun is to swap the loom and ECU over to a 2 row to see if that fixes anything.

 

Also checked the fuel return pipe by hooking the hose up to a bottle so it had no back pressure. The fuel flowed from the hose into the bottle fine, but it still spluttered so it's definately an ignition problem as opposed to an overfuelling issue.

 

Cheers

Veero

Edited May 4, 2006 by Veero

[ada205 2]

Hi mate. Just a qiuck thought.. Have you chopped your loom in any places, or lenghtened parts of the loom in anyway? Was just wondering if you'd maybe extended a shielded wire with non sheilded wire? This would cause cross interference and possible symptoms like some your having.

This sort of reminds me of something i did a few years back..... I had a perfect runner 1.6 and decided to do a few simple jobs on the old girl one weekend. She'd just been seviced, so decided to replace dizzy cap, rotor arm and leads too. Simple job that even i could'nt cock up. What followed was two weeks of missfiring hell!! Problem was eventually traced to the ignition amp, which on this car was on the bulkhead, and coil, which was close by. When I'd changed the leads, I'd fed the ht from the coil across the face of the module causing major interference. Turned the ht lead 180 degrees, so it now started it's path in the other direction and down under between coil and inner wing, and the car never missed a beat again! Moral of the story is never let me near your car folks!

 

Keep plugging away mate.

[d-9 0]

Also checked the fuel return pipe by hooking the hose up to a bottle so it had no back pressure. The fuel flowed from the hose into the bottle fine, but it still spluttered so it's definately an ignition problem as opposed to an overfuelling issue.

 

It could quite feasibly be an overfueling issue that is causing it to run rich, as a dodgy sensor/signal could be causing the ecu to increase the injection duration, so dont preach something until you know for sure.

[Veero 1]

Oh sorree.

 

Perhaps I should rephrase that then. It doesn't appear to be overpressurising that's causing the overfuelling (if that's what the problem is). Seems far more likely the spark isn't occuring everytime it should.

 

On idle it seems to miss a beat every few seconds or so. The fuel pump appears to be getting a constant voltage all the time.

 

Although ironically the problem seemd to go away last night, after giving it a wash on Wesnesday night.

 

perhaps I just need to polish it, then it will work perfectly...

 

Veero

[Veero 1]

I guess the water dried out. It's started misfiring again, with no conceivable reason to see why it's started again. I changed the oilg pressure sender over today and now I get a sensible pressure reading (thank goodness). Fired it up and guess what its missing again under load.

 

So tonight I swapped the loom out for a borrowed 2 row loom and ECU. Exactly the same problems.

 

I had a complete duplicate loom, except for the section that connects the coil and ignition module to the main loom and the rev counter and switched live feeds. So since I haven't changed that bit I'm guessing (hoping) that this part is the problem.

 

So I pulled it out and the plug to the coil was in a s*it state, the wires were bare beyond the plug so had the potential to short. I cut the plug off and connected spades directly to the coil to ensure a decent connection. No dice. Also there is a lose spade off the coil pin 4. I understand its the stereo interference supressor, should this be connected to anything?

 

One thing I did notice though is the 3-row loom the plug that joins the ignition amp/coil loom to the main loom only had 2 pins on the plug on the main loom end. There was no provision to the connect the wire for the shielding of ignition module wire plug pin 6, whereas on the 2-row loom this pin connecting the shielding wire had a connection to the main loom.

 

Could this lack of connection of the shielding be a problem?

 

If anyone has any ideas at all pleae reply here. I am totally stumped.

 

Also if anyone in Exeter could possibly have a look sometime, I dont mind shouting petrol money etc.

 

Veero

[Veero 1]

Swapped my old ingition module back in and its fine now...

 

Pesky ECP..

 

 

Ah well what a relief!!!

 

Now to finish the running in