Cheap Options For Road Rally Suspenders

[shepherdfte 0]

I know this has been covered a lot, but I can't find a specific answer, so please hear me out! )

 

I've a road rally 1.6 that has seen a lot of action, and the shocks (standard) are shot. Thus I want to sort out new kit. Now, research pretty quickly convinced me that the ideal solution would be a set of Billy coilovers on the front with forest inserts and springs, coupled to a set of group N shocks on the back. However, at the same time I've become skint, and anyway, half the reason we've done well with this car is it's cheap, so I can afford to push it. Plus I'm leaving the country after an indeterminate period, so I don't want to spend a fortune.

 

Thus I've realised that new billies are way out, and second hand ones like rocking horse poo (plus there's the rebuilding costs etc), so I've figured a plan:

 

1 ) New normalish front struts with 'performance' damping (either adjustable or not), allied to a set of stiffer (but not too stiff) springs, set up for normal ride height and ideally a bit more 'progressive' (i.e. less prone to bottoming).

 

2) New bushes (Pug) and ARB bushes (pug) and top mount bearings.

 

3) 309 wishbones (I happen to have a set with good bottom joints- yes I know about the shafts)

 

4) Suitable 'performance' rear dampers, unadjustable or adjustable, on my standard (rebuilt and solid mounted) beam.

 

Thus I'm hoping that the improvement due to 'New kit' and slight increase in damping and springing levels will do the business for road rallies, without beserk cost.

 

So a few questions:

 

1) Do folk agree that this makes sense in the spirit of disposable rallying, or is it all pointless next to a 'proper' set of billies? Considering how good the standard car is I think not but.....

 

2) What shocks front and rear would folk reckon (it seems to me that sprintlines etc etc are always designed with the street in mind)? Also, what springs and from whom?

 

Oh yeah and 3), what do I need for top mounts apart from the bearing? Is there rubber up there and does it get shot with age?

 

Many thanks for reading the mega post!

 

Andy

[jonD6B 0]

If you're interested I have a pair of French 'Record Gaz' front struts with uprated springs, unused top mount rubbers and good top mounts that I took of my 205 when I replaced them with Bilstein Sprintlines in an aim for a firmer ride but they didn't seem to make any difference. Therefore, I would actually compare them to the Billies. I'd take £60 the pair plus postage. PM me if you're interested.

Edited April 19, 2006 by jonD6B

[chownr 0]

Andy

 

I think what you are proposing is a step in the right direction as long as your not planing on doing to many events with lots of white mileage. Ive learnt from bitter experience that buying a half way house can end up costing you twice as much in the long run. I know a few people who run sprintline struts with uprated springs and top mounts which seem OK on smooth tar events but they do tend to leak after a few months. Have you considered looking for a set of uprated fixed platform Billies with uprated springs as a cheaper alternative to coilovers? Alternatively why not bite th ebuillet with coilovers and sell them on when youve had your use out of them? As you say they are like rocking horse poo and have attractive residual prices.

 

Rich

[SPGTi 2]

I am also from the school of budget road rallying (wife disagrees but that's life ! . )

 

My suspension set up is fixed platform Koni sports (top adjustable) with 309 Gti front springs. These lower the front about 5mm with a higher lbage than the 205 springs. I have group N top mount rubbers.

The rear is rebuilt 205 beam (using group N beam mounts) with Koni sports on the back at std ride height. This setup seems to work pretty well on both tarmac and whites. The ride quality is also pretty good (at least as good as std but with less roll).

 

A post a few weeks ago pointed that coilover billies should be stripped down after everycouple of rallies though. For me this would be too much time and hassle.

 

Steve

[smckeown 1]

you could try wearing these

 

 

chav talk goes down well on maxpower.co.uk

[Craigb 2]

A post a few weeks ago pointed that coilover billies should be stripped down after everycouple of rallies though. For me this would be too much time and hassle.

 

Steve

 

Steve No pain no gain . Abount 30 mins each to rebuild

 

seriously though , go for the best you can afford on the back as this is an area where better times can come from

 

My preferences through experience

 

205 gravel / tarmac billies 2nd hand are available try AB or West Mids 40-50 ea

306 gravel new 120 ea keep the rear end planted

205 proflex £500 ea . Bump ? what bump ?

 

AB are also starting to look at Ohlins at 400 ea , no experience of them as yet

 

Budget is always relative , but when a poor damper doesn't control that rear end and you end up in a tree , then 2nd hand billies look all the more attractive .

[SPGTi 2]

Steve No pain no gain . Abount 30 mins each to rebuild

 

But I would get, "What are doing to that heap of scrap now ? You haven't bought new parts again have you ?"

 

When I reply " Just rebuilding"

 

I would get " You spend all that money and it is always on axle stands etc etc etc"

 

You get the idea

 

Steve

[Craigb 2]

You get the idea

 

Steve

 

Oh yes i get the idea

 

You missed out the classic , you pay that car more attention than me me you do , and it still lets you down !!

[shepherdfte 0]

Thanks for all the replys guys. As I say, I would like billies, but time is (for rebuilidning) is a big issue for me. I think the fixed platforms with better damping may be the best option - what do bilstein do in this area? Who would be best to ring about a pair? What springs (liked the 309 option although not sure I like the ride-height loss!)?

 

Andy

[jonD6B 0]

Thanks for all the replys guys. As I say, I would like billies, but time is (for rebuilidning) is a big issue for me. I think the fixed platforms with better damping may be the best option - what do bilstein do in this area? Who would be best to ring about a pair? What springs (liked the 309 option although not sure I like the ride-height loss!)?

 

Andy

 

Euro car parts seem to do good prices on Bilstein but I don't know whether they sell Challenge spec. dampers or not. The Grp.N top mount rubbers lift the front by 5mm because of the firmer compound so could this negate the 5mm drop from the 309 springs?

[bren_1.3 1]

how about buying a coilover conversion kit from somewhere like rally design, and converting a pair of new o.e shock s to coilovers?

[shepherdfte 0]

Thanks for the replies guys - sorry for delayed responses.

 

It sounds from the above that what i propose will work, so the question is what shocks and springs. As I say, it's for road rallies and I do do lots of moderate whites, so I don't want uber stiff damping, just a bit tighter that normal. I guess sprintlines would be too stiff, as would be the Gaz struts kindly suggested by jonDB?

 

The suggestions seem to be the koni sports (SPgti suggested), or fixed platform billies. What fixed billies would be a sensible damping level for what I propose (ditto what springs), or who is best to ring about it? Does anybody have a definative idea or place to look for definative 'levels' of damping provided by various options compared to standard?

 

I'm less worried about the rear as I can prolly get a second hand set of billy group Ns for it, or pick up a shock set with the new struts.

 

Thanks again,

 

Andy

[SPGTi 2]

For the fixed platfom billies give West Mids MOtorsport a call as they do challenge spec with uprated springs. This is what they use in the 1400 series. Personally I thought that their uprated springs were very close to std 309gti springs though.

I went with Konis because I got them very cheap, bilstein do seem to work very well on pugs.

 

Steve

[shepherdfte 0]

Righto chaps - getting close to a solution. I spoke to a few folk about 'proper' billy coilovers or fixed platform insert types and it seems that they are hard to get 2nd hand and still a fortune, and there is the question of daily use / rebuilding etc.

 

I researched a huge list of the altternatives, and personally fancied a set of the Bilstein 'Sport' struts. These are similar to their sprintline shocks in that they are pricey and good quality with fixed damping, but are specifically built with a standard body length for those that want std ride height rather than lowering. The damping is set by Bilstein to be right for the car for fast road use, but is about 25% more than standard, which sounds about right for road rallies.

 

Not cheap at £175 each for the front, and £67 each on the rear, without springs.

 

But that's new, and I think the quality and longevity should be good. Looking at about £70 quid for a set of custom wound springs (nice and progressive so soft for the first inch and then rapidly harder to soak up the rough whilst resisting bottoming and roll).

 

So about £550 before I buy bushes etc. Not cheap, but not mad either.

 

SPAX do a similar strut at only £110 each (same price rear) and it's adjustable damping, but I guess the quality may not be as good. Would folk agree?

 

But before I buy 'em - one question. For that money I could buy a set of AVO coilovers complete (actually £423). Research suggests the qualiity of these is a bit hit and miss and they might be rather stiff.

 

What would folk do:

 

1) The billies

2) The AVOs

3) I'm mad and should do something totally different

 

Andy

Edited May 2, 2006 by shepherdfte

[Leon 24]

Considering how quickly 205's eat dampers on road rallies, I just fitted gas KYB dampers and a set of 309 springs I had lying about. When the rears wore out I replaced them with some er, chromed purplish things. They came off a 309 and worked quite well.

 

Cheap, but effective.

[shepherdfte 0]

Considering how quickly 205's eat dampers on road rallies, I just fitted gas KYB dampers and a set of 309 springs I had lying about. When the rears wore out I replaced them with some er, chromed purplish things. They came off a 309 and worked quite well.

 

Cheap, but effective.

 

 

Good post! Dunno about quickly though, my standard dampers have done about 25 events, and we've had several top 10 finishes.

 

who lists KYB kit?

 

Considering how quickly 205's eat dampers on road rallies, I just fitted gas KYB dampers and a set of 309 springs I had lying about. When the rears wore out I replaced them with some er, chromed purplish things. They came off a 309 and worked quite well.

 

Cheap, but effective.

 

 

Good post! Dunno about quickly though, my standard dampers have done about 25 events, and we've had several top 10 finishes.

 

who lists KYB kit?

[Leon 24]

Not sure - mine came from a local motor factor

 

http://www.kayaba.co.uk/

 

That's the corporate website. Maybe my tired old rear beam accounts for why I go through a lot of rear dampers (fronts are pretty robust)

 

Be interested to hear about your ply tank guards - any details (sorry for the off topic)

[jonah 1]

I wouldn't rule out the Koni's - haven't tried the fronts but I had a pair of rear dampers and was really impressed with them for road rally use. Greatly improved the controllability of lift-off oversteer and were superb at soaking up even the biggest bumps. Only took them off when I started prepping the car for the Challenge as the regs only allow Bilstein. The Bilstein tarmac rears, at twice the price of the Koni's, don't feel a lot different!

 

I sold the Konis to a mate with a 309GTI road rally car, he was really pleased with them, and that car was later broken and the dampers are now on yet another 309GTI road rally car, and the current owner is also impressed with them! They seem to be lasting very well too.

 

 

BTW in case it helps, CompBrake sell what appears to be replicas of the Bilstein height-adjustable competition strut bodies and spring seats, at much lower prices than the genuine stuff. I don't know how the quality compares with genuine but it but it might be worth a try if anyone's thinking of going that way...

[shepherdfte 0]

Cheers. I've heard very mixed press on the Konis, so was not considering them (wheras I was considering the spax struts). What did you have - RSK9s (0-25% more damping)?

 

My other option (along the same lines as the AVO coilovers) is a set of SPAX coilovers for about £450. Opinions?

 

Looked at Comp-brake - strut bodies look good at £65 each. I think inserts are about £140 so not too bad. Anybody tried 'em?

[shepherdfte 0]

Not sure - mine came from a local motor factor

 

http://www.kayaba.co.uk/

 

That's the corporate website. Maybe my tired old rear beam accounts for why I go through a lot of rear dampers (fronts are pretty robust)

 

Be interested to hear about your ply tank guards - any details (sorry for the off topic)

If someone can explain photo uploads to me, I'll explain my £10 tank guards! Very effective though - we've dragged the car edgeways along a ditch, and dropped off onto the tarmac edge several times. They're very tough.

[jonah 1]

Sorry, should have said. They were the Koni Sport (yellow, off-car adjustable).

[Leon 24]

If someone can explain photo uploads to me, I'll explain my £10 tank guards! Very effective though - we've dragged the car edgeways along a ditch, and dropped off onto the tarmac edge several times. They're very tough.

 

Go here

 

http://imageshack.us/index.php

 

Press "browse" and choose the photo (s) from your hard drive

 

Hit "host it" and it will upload your pic and give you the url. Just paste that url into your post

[shepherdfte 0]

ok, will do a quick few photos when I get the time.

 

In the mean time, anybody esle care to 'vote' on the suspenders?

 

Billy sports struts (my current plan)

Spax but otherwise similar (i.e. uprated struts)

AVO coilovers or Spax coilovers

 

?

 

Andy

[Adam B 0]

I used to run koni yellows on my old 205. Sure it wasn't a road rally car but I did do 40 miles of very bumpy welsh B road every day (how lucky ). Brilliant shocks imo for soaking up bumps on standard ride height. The rears didn't last more than 2 years though.

I'd probably stick with the billies myself on your list..

[shepherdfte 0]

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QUOTE(Adam B @ May 4 2006, 01:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I used to run koni yellows on my old 205. Sure it wasn't a road rally car but I did do 40 miles of very bumpy welsh B road every day (how lucky ). Brilliant shocks imo for soaking up bumps on standard ride height. The rears didn't last more than 2 years though.

I'd probably stick with the billies myself on your list..

 

I think I would to, although I'm tempted to make the front struts SPAX as they are similar, but much cheaper, so if I bust one it's only £100 to change, plus they are adjustable. I suspect the billy rates will be bob on for rallying, but the adjustment on the SPAX might be handy for the odd solo or track day.

 

Oh decisions.

 

Mind you, now I'm leaning toward the SPAX coilovers, as they are a total set (no need to fanny around getting springs, and cheaper than the billy struts).

 

sigh.