4wd 205?

[efy2bjg 0]

So as not to completely hijack Red205's thread i thought i'd start this one! The concept of a Dangel style 4x4 205 is very interesting, especially how simple(ish) the system seems.

I'd be interested to pick the brains of a few people to understand a bit more about how it could be pieced together.

 

Thanks Hilgie for your diagram, i hadn't noticed the rear footwell was modified.

 

 

Some questions:

 

-Does the 405 mi16 drive train have a three diff setup with a diff in the transfer box?

 

-Were the 4x4 mi16's a mix of ali 1.9's and iron block 2.0's like the fwd ones?

 

-Does the fuel tank above look like a modified standard one or a one off/from a 405? i'm thinking it might be from another car as if it was completely custom, surely the exhaust would just run straight along side the prop and the other passenger footwell would have been chopped?

 

-Does anyone know what 405 rear arms look like compared to 309 ones (where they join to the beam)?

 

Thanks

 

Ben

[cybernck 402 1 Cars]

-Does the 405 mi16 drive train have a three diff setup with a diff in the transfer box?

well the front and center drivetrain are both contained in the transferbox,

while the rear (torsen) one is obviously located at the rear axle .

 

 

-Were the 4x4 mi16's a mix of ali 1.9's and iron block 2.0's like the fwd ones?

no, only alloy 1.9's, except from T16's ofcourse .

 

 

-Does the fuel tank above look like a modified standard one or a one off/from a 405? i'm thinking it might be from another car as if it was completely custom, surely the exhaust would just run straight along side the prop and the other passenger footwell would have been chopped?

it looks to me like a (modified) 205 tank, the tunnel for the exhaust is there as standard.

 

 

-Does anyone know what 405 rear arms look like compared to 309 ones (where they join to the beam)?

THIS should give you some answers .

 

 

hope this helps.

[efy2bjg 0]

Thanks cybernk, that cleared some things up.

I can't seem to find any pictures of a mi16x4 transfer box and drive shafts.

 

well the front and center drivetrain are both contained in the transferbox,

 

Does this mean that the front drive shafts come out of the transfer box and not the usual place?

[Hilgie 16 2 Cars]

Does this mean that the front drive shafts come out of the transfer box and not the usual place?

 

Yes. Both front drive shafts come out of the transferbox. They are equal length as well!

[Powers 13]

Hilgie, did you ever enquire about the price from dangel for the Awd parts?

Cheers.

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

 

This is the 405 rear subframe (!) mounted on a Dimma 309 (that has been stood for a long time!)

More pictures here

Edited April 19, 2006 by Hilgie

[petert 587]

This is the 405 subframe mounted on a Dimma 309 (that has been stood for a long time!)

 

so, if a 309 subframe fits in a 205, and 405 subframe fits in a 309, would a 405 subframe fit in a 205?

[d-9 0]

You have a 205 and a 405....

[Ryan 99]

I don't think the 405 subframe is a straight fit on to either the 205 or 309. It's far too wide for a standard car, which is probably why the dimma kit had to be fitted to widen the arches?

[Ahl 4]

Green machine put the 4wd 405 rear axle onto his ongoing 205 project, so its probably worth asking him.

 

It needed some welding and fabrication if I remember rightly - the topic is on here somewhere.

[petert 587]

You have a 205 and a 405....

 

Yes, and intend keeping it that way. I did have an idea of using 205 front struts/hubs once, but that's now passed.

[Hilgie 16 2 Cars]

so, if a 309 subframe fits in a 205, and 405 subframe fits in a 309, would a 405 subframe fit in a 205?

Yes, the front mountingpoints are the same. The rear mountingpoints aren't, so you'd have to make special brackets for it to fit the original mountingpoints of the car. The wishbones are much wider, so that would force you to use a wide bodykit like Dimma or Maxi.

It is possible to fit 205 shockabsorbers into the 405 hub carriers.

 

The 405 rear subframe is a completely different story though. It does not fit any of the original mountingpoints and requires a lot of fabricating and welding to be fitted to a 205.

 

Hilgie, did you ever enquire about the price from dangel for the Awd parts?

Cheers.

Yes, offcourse I did. Unfortunately they did not want to supply their parts separately. They only do complete cars, Partner and Berlingo. Furthermore I asked specifically for the 309 4x4 rearbeam, which was a one-off jobbie build by a now retired engineer so they couldn't give me any details.

 

I think however that the rearbeam itself is a standard 309 item, with modified 309 or 405 arms. 405 arms modified to fit the 309 beam, or 309 arms modified to house 106 or custom front wheel bearings.

I am going to look into both options in a short while, but I guess the 106 front wheel bearing option is the easiest and quickest way to accomplish. Make up some custom driveshafts out of 106 and 405 shafts and you're up and running.

[Martin@PRD 0]

Interesting thread, though does any one know what the transmission losses are with the 4x4 arrangment?

 

I have only heard rumours and never experanced driving a 4x4 though is it true that the power/torque transmitted to the back was only 30%?

Edited April 20, 2006 by Martin@PRD

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

The 405 rear subframe is a completely different story though. It does not fit any of the original mountingpoints and requires a lot of fabricating and welding to be fitted to a 205.

Just a little welding!!! The rear seat backs are at about 40 degrees reclined! Not very comfy (but all Dimma leather with headrests etc!!)

 

Furthermore I asked specifically for the 309 4x4 rearbeam, which was a one-off jobbie build by a now retired engineer so they couldn't give me any details.

 

I think however that the rearbeam itself is a standard 309 item, with modified 309 or 405 arms. 405 arms modified to fit the 309 beam, or 309 arms modified to house 106 or custom front wheel bearings.

I am going to look into both options in a short while, but I guess the 106 front wheel bearing option is the easiest and quickest way to accomplish. Make up some custom driveshafts out of 106 and 405 shafts and you're up and running.

 

Oh and I have seen a 4x4 205 in standard from at Pugfest once but never got underneath it. It was from the Cornish group.

 

Not sure on the torque split between front and rear, but when I drove the 309 it seemed to handle more like a rwd than a fwd; i.e. you can balance a rear end powerslide on the throttle

[Rippthrough 98]

Interesting thread, though does any one know what the transmission losses are with the 4x4 arrangment?

 

I have only heard rumours and never experanced driving a 4x4 though is it true that the power/torque transmitted to the back was only 30%?

 

45% rear.

[petert 587]

45% rear.

 

I thought it was 47 rear, 53 front.

[Hilgie 16 2 Cars]

peter t is right there...and transmission losses on any 4x4 are higher than with FWD or RWD alone. around the 25% transmission losses is quite common on Subs.

[Ryan 99]

I hear that subarus have unusually high transmission losses though, and that 20% is more normal.

[Rippthrough 98]

I thought it was 47 rear, 53 front.

 

Say's 45% in my book of lies.

[efy2bjg 0]

I guess the 106 front wheel bearing option is the easiest and quickest way to accomplish. Make up some custom driveshafts out of 106 and 405 shafts and you're up and running.

 

 

I've never taken a rear hub apart and without a car outside i can't have a look, so:

 

- Does a 205/309 rear arm have a 'hole' in it for a drive shaft to fit through to a different/modified hub?

 

- When you mention modding the rear arms to accept 106 front wheel bearings, would using these allow a 405 mi16x4 hub to mount to the 205/309 arm?

 

- Also would i be right in saying that the standard 205/309 front track width and hub/suspension setup (except the subframe) could remain standard, with the front hubs being fed from the transfer box via custom/shortened mi16x4 shafts?

 

- Is it possible to have drive shafts shortened?

 

 

 

Ben

Edited April 21, 2006 by efy2bjg

[Hilgie 16 2 Cars]

I've never taken a rear hub apart and without a car outside i can't have a look, so:

 

- Does a 205/309 rear arm have a 'hole' in it for a drive shaft to fit through to a different/modified hub?

Yes. The hole needs to be made slightly bigger though.

- When you mention modding the rear arms to accept 106 front wheel bearings, would using these allow a 405 mi16x4 hub to mount to the 205/309 arm?

You need to make custom driveshafts: 405x4 innerpart and 106 outerpart

- Also would i be right in saying that the standard 205/309 front track width and hub/suspension setup (except the subframe) could remain standard, with the front hubs being fed from the transfer box via custom/shortened mi16x4 shafts?

Yes!

- Is it possible to have drive shafts shortened?

Yes! I run shortened 406 Coupe shafts on my 205 V6.

[efy2bjg 0]

Thanks for all the knowlege Hilgie thats great.

 

 

You need to make custom driveshafts: 405x4 innerpart and 106 outerpart

 

but still using mi16x4 rear hubs or front 106 ones?

[Hilgie 16 2 Cars]

front 106 ones.

[efy2bjg 0]

Are the 106 ones (any model?) used because they are small? as opposed to the 405 or 205 ones.

[Hilgie 16 2 Cars]

yes because they are small....I think a 106 1.4 might do fine. However I have not tested this. Will do in a while when I have some spare arms.