Sump Baffle For My New Engine 2.1 Engine

[Shevy 4]

I know there have been discussion's about fitting a baffled sump to the Alloy block 1.9 engine and that it doesn't really help with oil surge much.

 

Matt Sav is about to build me a 2.1 Iron block engine with my new head and cams.

Is it worth fitting a baffled sump to my new Iron block engine.

The last thing I wanna do is kill it after a couple of laps on track through oil starvation.

In an ideal world I would fit a pace dry sump system,but I'm about to be all spent out on engine work and I've still got to Tax,Insure MOT and have a full suspension setup and full remap for my new engine which is gonna finish off any money I have left.

I could have just about stretched to a ACCUSUMP setup but by the sounds of Antoni's post they don't work on the mi engine :-)

I don't want to waste any money on a baffled sump if it's gonna prove useless for my new engine.

 

Any Opinions would be very welcome

 

Thanks

[Jonmurgie 2]

Well they 'should' be better than a non-baffled sump so I guess you should go for it if you have the cash to do so... though there are storys of baffled sumps also not making that much difference on the Mi.

 

Is the car to be a road car or track car or a mix of both?

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

The 2.0 engine doesn't seem to suffer surge as badly as the 1.9Mi16 engine so in that respect you're at an advantage from the start so a baffle kit may work ok with this engine (although the 2.0 could have a windage tray, oil pump baffle and sump baffle already)

[Ahl 4]

Adding a litre extra oil along with the sump baffles should make more of a difference.

[petert 601]

Is it worth fitting a baffled sump to my new Iron block engine.

 

They have a trap door baffle as standard. I'd recommend the following, if it doesn't have it already.

 

- buy the four extended main cap bolts from an S16 or GTi6

- bolt on the S16/GTi6 windage tray

- cut the ribs out of a 1.9L spacer plate and add between block and sump

- extend pickup 15mm

- make a 15mm deeper pump baffle

- add 1L extra of oil

 

The first engine I built with a deeper sump like this is now two seasons old and still going strong.

 

If you can still get oil surge after this you need a dry sump.

[Shevy 4]

Well they 'should' be better than a non-baffled sump so I guess you should go for it if you have the cash to do so... though there are storys of baffled sumps also not making that much difference on the Mi.

 

Is the car to be a road car or track car or a mix of both?

 

 

Hi Jon,

 

It will be a mixture of both at the moment.

Probably another year away before I go full on track car like yours.

 

Thanks for all the replies, I must say I really do love this forum.

 

 

Thanks Peter,

 

I'll speak with Matt who's building my engine and see if we can incorporate this into my enginebuild.

 

Cheers

[hman205 1]

kev am i right in thinking your still using a 1.9 alloy head on the iorn block or are these mods being done to a gti6 head?

[Shevy 4]

kev am i right in thinking your still using a 1.9 alloy head on the iorn block or are these mods being done to a gti6 head?

 

1.9 head

I wasn't going to say much about the engine. But I confirmed most things with Matt yesterday.He's got most the bits already for me and I'm getting quite excited now !!

 

The spec will be as follows

 

2.0 Iron block bored to 86.5mm

88mm crank (1.9mi)

86.5mm High Comp Wiseco pistons

QEP Big valve head - Matt has spent hours and hours on the flow bench to finally get some good gains.

Puma Racing 36.5mm big inlet valves.

Catcams - Not sure on the part number. Was gonna be the 4900521(replaced by 4900528) 11.5mm lift cams which was previously the limit on the hydraulic lifters, but I'm going a bit lairier due to the nature of big capacity bottom ends moving the peak power down a few hundred Rpm.

Uprated valve springs

Bottom end all built up with new oil pump,big ends/mains etc.....

Kent cam vernier pulleys

 

The rest of the engine will be unchanged

Maniflow 4-2-1 manifold and Maniflow exhaust system

Jenvey 45mm T/B's, on Longmanns inlet manifold

90mm trumpets ( I hope to experiment with different size trumpets )

EFi technology Euro 1 Engine management.

I may need a change of injectors aswell, but these are with Matt at the moment and he is gonna check what model I have at the minute and if they need changing.

 

I was considering 87/88mm pistons setup but there is a 10 week wait for the pistons and to be honest running 86.5mm leaves me with the option to bore the block bigger should I ever need to !

[findlay 0]

Adding a litre extra oil along with the sump baffles should make more of a difference.

 

Agreed, Ahl's suggestion will help but it by no means cures the issue. How about you save all the money from not doing track days this year and buy the dry-sump kit in time for next year?

[Shevy 4]

Agreed, Ahl's suggestion will help but it by no means cures the issue. How about you save all the money from not doing track days this year and buy the dry-sump kit in time for next year?

 

 

Another year off the track......!! I'll go insane !! ha ha ha

[Jonmurgie 2]

That's some tasty spec... 'quite' similar to mine in a few respects! Looking at it though, I'd say you NEED to get a dry sump system going on there, you really don't want to run the risk of loosing that expensive engine now do you!

 

OK, so maybe you can get away with it on the road but if you go on track your gonna continually be worrying about it (I know I would!)

[Shevy 4]

I totally agree with you Jon, I will worry.

 

Maybe I can sell a Kidney to finish the engine off ! :-)

 

This should be my final spec engine.

I was considering going to solid lifters but have decided not to in the end.

It's so easy to get carried away, I start chatting to Matt and then forget about the mortage, bills, house, wife ,eating........ha ha

I should have plenty of Torque and power with this setup and it should still drive well on the road.

Next year I will consider selling the car with a standard mi engine take off all the good bits,suspension brakes etc...then buy a decent condition standard 205 with missing or buggered engine.

Then make it a full on track car.

 

Between You and CW you must have driven most of the tracks around the U.K. and your engines are still running.I've driven Castlecoombe, Angelsey Brunters and a few others but never in my Mi.

Which tracks are kindest on the Mi engine and which are worse. Maybe I could be selective until I have enough funds for a dry sump.I'm gonna go with Peter T's recommendation for now,with a modified sump.

 

Whats the spec of your new engine going to be then ?

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

I've driven a lot of UK circuits and found that there is oil pressure loss somewhere on each one. I used to have the oil pressure light coming on some tracks BEFORE I put the baffle bits in but the gauge still drops down a lot; so the baffle kits do work a little. When the light used to come on I just used to stick it in neutral and let the engine idle to regain pressure which got annoying on track!

 

I think the worst for mine is Silverstone strangely enough, the complex just before the start finish is really bad for both oil and fuel surge on mine.

 

Castle Combe seems fine, as does Anglesey in my experience (still show pressure drops though).

 

I never really noticed the gauge at the 'Ring, but according to Dino when he passengered he said it was constantly moving up and down.

[Shevy 4]

Cheers for that Chris.

 

Gives me a bit more hope for now.

 

I'll definetly get the sump modified like Peter T said and hope that is good enough for now.

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

Martin/crf450 found that in his 205Mi16 (1.9) he got bad oil surge and changed the shells a couple of times but in his GTi6 running track tyres the oil pressure gauge doesn't move.

[findlay 0]

And the only REAL difference between the GTi6 head and an alloy 1.9 Mi is that the GTi6 has both of the oil galleries fully opened out versus the Mi which only has one opened out gallery and one simply round hole... That could be the simplest cure for oil surge... machine out the second gallery? That was my plan if I had kept the Mi... but I didn't.

 

PS - My old Mi is on Pistonheads just now for £750 more than I sold it for!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mental

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

And the only REAL difference between the GTi6 head and an alloy 1.9 Mi is that the GTi6 has both of the oil galleries fully opened out versus the Mi which only has one opened out gallery and one simply round hole... That could be the simplest cure for oil surge... machine out the second gallery? That was my plan if I had kept the Mi... but I didn't.

 

PS - My old Mi is on Pistonheads just now for £750 more than I sold it for!!!!!!!!!!!!! Mental

 

I would think the main difference is the way the gti6 head is designed compared to the Mi16.

On the Mi16 head there's lotsa space for oil to occupy. The gti6 ones have much less space for the oil to occupy, so therefor it'll drain back into the sump a lot quicker.

[Jonmurgie 2]

Whats the spec of your new engine going to be then ?

Until Matt actually starts putting it together the spec may change so I'll wait until then before I post anything

[Shevy 4]

Until Matt actually starts putting it together the spec may change so I'll wait until then before I post anything

 

Ha ha ha I know that story.

I initialy started out with some new valve springs......from there it was a big snow ball effect to the current spec I'm going for now.

[findlay 0]

I would think the main difference is the way the gti6 head is designed compared to the Mi16.

On the Mi16 head there's lotsa space for oil to occupy. The gti6 ones have much less space for the oil to occupy, so therefor it'll drain back into the sump a lot quicker.

 

I stand corrected about the space. At least we all agree that the problem isn't the sump, but the head. I am correct about the fact that both drains in the GTi6 head are fully opened out though?

[Shevy 4]

I stand corrected about the space. At least we all agree that the problem isn't the sump, but the head. I am correct about the fact that both drains in the GTi6 head are fully opened out though?

 

I have seen on this forum somewhere a head modified with some piping running from the head straight to the sump or something similar.

 

Does this work or help in any way, does anyone know ?

[petert 601]

Thought this might be usefull. It's an iron block with modified 1.9L spacer and extended pickup. I still have to fit the extended pump baffle.

[findlay 0]

I have seen on this forum somewhere a head modified with some piping running from the head straight to the sump or something similar.

 

Does this work or help in any way, does anyone know ?

 

Well I wondered about this BUT...

 

the pipework would have to run past the manifold

and

under heavy braking the oil won't be near the drains

and

should you cross the pipes below the manifold so that the oil will drain into the side of the sump the G is pulling it away from therefore it will run past the pickup?

and

if you're running slicks will you generate more G than the gravity working on draining the oil into the sump through the diagonal?

and

how much extra oil will you need

etc etc etc

 

I felt there were just too many variables and what ifs to warrant drilling two rather large holes in a perfectly servicable head...

Edited March 30, 2006 by findlay

[petert 601]

If you were running a dry sump you'd scavenge from the head (in addition to the sump) so might as well drill and tap a hole anyway.