205td Straight Veg Oil Hybrid Project.

[Guest BrainFluid]

Hey Folks!

 

New around here but boy I love 205's too!

 

Whilst finishing off the last bits of an 205XT's classability I'm also converting my 205TD into a straight veg oil conversion.

 

After a little study and years of dreaming about one day using more bio-fuel than dino-diesel we start

 

Its interesting to note that Mr Diesels's engine ran on peanut oil and is quoted to having said that 'one day biological oil will be a serious contender to petrol chemicals'

 

I wont bore you with the history but if there hadnt been an eaiser profit to be had out of petrochemicals (ie greed) we would all be running a lot more bio fuled motors today. Esp if it had had the proper ammount of R&D squids put into it as the dino-fuels have had!

 

I've got the plans made up, got a shopping list, a technically minded, urm, mind. And I'm willing to use it!

 

Pictures, plans and updates (good and bad) to follow over the course of history.

 

Live Long and Prosper.

 

Nathan.

[Guest rick03054]

I've had looong conversations with one of my mates about doing this.

 

I'll be watching for progress reports with interest, good luck.

[Guest BrainFluid]

Thanks man.

 

I see that your in scotland too. Its a good job that veg oil (i'll be using rape seed oil though seen as its produced in the U.K) needs heating up to at least 60-80 degrees C before it runs through your injectors to protect them, the engine and the fuel pump ( if its a lucas ).

 

Other wise I'ld never get it flowing through me fuel pipes in this country!

 

 

The plan is to use a Two Tank System.

 

This is because A: If it all goes wrong at any point the car can just run on dino-diesel.

B: This keeps ALL rape seed oil out of the main tank.

C: Its is easier to start the car on diesel and use the engines excess heat to warm the rape seed oil. (the car will finish on diesel too so all the R.S.O is flushed out)

D:I got a lucas fuel pump, a REAL no no if you dont HEAT the r.s.o and, even acutall bio-diesel, up first)

 

Plans and before pics will be posted shortly

[DrSeuss 0]

A peugeot workshop manager (head mech.) had a battered 205 gld which he ran on asda's cheapest cooking oil and 50% diesel. He would rinse the tank with a fill up of diesel every couple of tanks and away he went.

 

Dip tests can't detect below a certain % of veggie oil.

[Guest BrainFluid]

One of the joys of a two tank system. In the very unlikely chance of getting dipped. There is only diesel in the tank they are testing.

 

If big brother finds out that there is another tank (and i've done my home work on this one) It is Not illegal to use veg oil, but, before you can pay any tax you have too record how much use as fuel first and keep a record of how much you use, which I shall

 

A Interesting point is that Tax does not have to be paid when you use veg oil in a stationary car. Odd but true!

 

My Plan is to use 100% rape seed oil, start on diesel and have flushed with diesel by the end of every journy. So there is no chance of there being any rape oil left in either the injector pump of the engine ready to solidify/crystalise at any cold moment!

[keith 0]

sounds like a nice little project, look forward to the updates.

 

best of luck.

[jackherer 543]

A peugeot workshop manager (head mech.) had a battered 205 gld which he ran on asda's cheapest cooking oil and 50% diesel. He would rinse the tank with a fill up of diesel every couple of tanks and away he went.

 

Dip tests can't detect below a certain % of veggie oil.

 

Thats exactly what my mate did with his UMM (which has a pug 2.5d engine)

[888rmb 6]

I've just started thinking about this as well. Apparently Bosch injector pumps are better for vegatable oil rather than the lucas ones. Does anyone know which 205 diesels had Bosch pumps and which had Lucas (e.g. which particular year or model)

[Ahl 4]

Sounds good, im also keen to see how this goes, having looked into it and found out about the vunerability of the lucas pump etc.

 

If you can work out how to do a relatively easy conversion I can see a lot of people doing this.

[Guest BrainFluid]

I've just started thinking about this as well. Apparently Bosch injector pumps are better for vegatable oil rather than the lucas ones. Does anyone know which 205 diesels had Bosch pumps and which had Lucas (e.g. which particular year or model)

 

For now I will treat the lucas pumap as a blessing in Disguise. Sure if you have a bosch injector pump you have a very good chance of running on a veg oil/dino diesel mix. However The thickness of the fuel will still be bad for the injectors and engine, and veg oil will always be in the whole of the cars system, potentially very scary!

 

Heating it up not only protects the lucas pump (this pump uses the fuel as its lube, a bosch does'nt) by thinning the veg oil, But the injectors and the engine too.

 

More importantly is that if the oil isnt heated it wont burn properly which means bad emmissions which is, well, bad. Even if its cheaper!

 

Also if you change to a bosh pump, it makes real good sense to get bosh injectors too. Plus the timing will need sorting.

 

So, forgive my ramblings , lets see if we can work it with the lucas pump! Of course I will be purchasing a used bosh injector pump and some used injectors as back up while I can, the only bosh pump pic in the haynes manual (chapter 3 3.3) is the only one i can see, Guess i'll find one in the scrap yard that looks like it and nabb the injectors while were at it!

 

 

Hmmm. I dont have a scanner but i will attempt to draw the plan on the computer and post soon. Its not really very complicated on paper. Included will be the shopping list, which is suprisingly short.

 

 

Thanks for the interest and support,

 

Nate.

[Richie-Van-GTi 71 2 Cars]

waxing of the injectors and pump is only a short term issue though, your biggest issue, especially on an older engine such as the 205 is that the veg oil can swiftly ruin various other rubber components, your best option IMHO is to use a waste veg oil then have it refined and add some methanol or even meth spriti/white spirit etc and thin it out to break down the carbon chains. Downside is it takes a bit off time and effort, bumps up the costs and leaves you with lots of soap (glycerine).

Id say you really need to b looking at some form of pre mixing to run a 20 derv/80% oil mix, this will keep the seals etc in tact.

I too have done lots of research on this and was going to start making my own bio derv with oil from a local chippy but then ditched the oil burner engine for something a little bit quicker

Edited February 11, 2006 by Richie-Van-GTi

[Guest BrainFluid]

Hi Richie!

 

It's Bio-diesel (the stuff you were thinking of making) that is more a danger to older rubber in engines.

 

I ( so far ) have not encountered anything suggesting that veg oil its-self attacks rubber, not like bio diesel does anyway!

 

Feel free to justify your comment however,I understand that you have done reasearch into this and by all means, let us be Friends!

 

I'm Not really worried about the engine its-self long term, apart from I will do everything possible to protect it from harm (yes i doubt that i will be running on 100% veg oil to start with but as close to 100%,that is the ultimate aim) , as the engine itself is 91' with high mileage, really its the experiance of actually doing it thats the most important thing. The more miles the better however, and you never know eh?!

 

Should the engine die at least I will have all the kit ready to do another conversion and the knowlage to build a better (and faster one) . If the seals for example do appear to have given me trouble that would be a good starting point, however thats too far into the future, aint even done a conversion yet!

 

Did you pick up on the fact that with a two tank conversion this enables you to only ever have the veg oil in the system while it was going and never sat in the system for most of a cars life , ie sat next to the kerb, eying up the back end of a foxy bitch cars

 

Not a lot else a car can do when its not being used huh!

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

The old XUD engines are one of the best one to have for running on veggie oil afaik, the heated fuel filter thins the veggie oil down nicely when used in colder weather.

 

I've heard of people running a 405's on quite a high percentage of cooking oil with a small amount of kerosene or parrafin to thin it for the cold starts before the fuel heater starts to take effect & thin the oil down. I have heard that the waxing of injectors can be a problem though over time but the benefits are quieter running, better performance & the engine lasts longer.

 

I assume you've doen a google search about this? A mate of mine used to run his car oil from a chipshop for a while & before he did he found lots of information about doing this on the net & this was a few years ago now. He didn't do it for long though as the constant smell of a chippy started to drive him mad.

 

Graham.

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

a wagon driver near me used to run his wagons on used vegie oil, they smelt so nice when he passed

oh and most places tell you you need a different tank but thats bollox, there are places that do the conversion but as graham said they just have a heater that heats the oil befor it goes in

Edited February 12, 2006 by allanallen

[madmat 0]

I ran the 405 on lidl's finest during the last fuel shortage and it ran fine although i later found out that mine is the the best xud to use as it has the bosch pump.I probably wouldn't have bothered if it weren't for all those prats panic buying.

It seems the best way to create a fuel shortage in this country is just threaten one and let the cretins do the rest

[Col 0]

is it a grey 205 you have?

 

did i meet you in kincardine a while back, i was in a green 205.

[Guest BrainFluid]

Well, we used to make bio-diesel where I lived last (reactor, takeaway's oil and all), so i'm pretty clued up on that side of things already. Its messy work however and the stuff you get left over is awfull, cleaning containers and getting rid of it was a knightmare! Its a bugger having to wait and find out wether your rubber can take it or not (ie fuel solenoind) and methol is expensive hard to get and ultimately not that nice to burn).

 

Over the past couple o' weeks I've been doing a lot of online research into just straight veg oil which i very appealing because of not having to worry about all the above

 

I like the idea of two tanks though AllenAllen, esp seen as I'm in Scotland, when the cars stood I really dont want any veg oil in the system at all!

 

 

And yes the TD is mettalic grey, but i dont recall meeting you Col. Did i have a limp? I'ld have still been recovering after my last (and hopefully THE last) car smash i had.

 

Tell you what, Its great to have so many folk all within a 100 miles of me on this site. Do you all ever get together and hire a track or owt like that?

[Col 0]

dunno whoever it was didnt get out the car!. was in kincardine- alloa, whoever it was took the piss right oot my 205 mi wi a diesel/chip fat 205

[Guest BrainFluid]

LOL

 

You would be suprised what the 205TD can take the piss out of. If it was me I'ld have been running on bio-diesel at the time so you never know! & I have been known to drive rather fast so...

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

Found some posts on a Rover forum mentioning these engines & the use of veggie oil here.

 

Don't know if its any use but it does mention a bit about which pumps do & don't like veg oil.

 

Graham.

[Guest BrainFluid]

Thanks Graham, I got a little excited reading about the suggestion that all xud7t setups had an extra fuel pump included. Had a look under the bonnet but she dont seem to have one must be the ones fitted with the bosh injector pump. Ah well looks like the lucas pump is good for somthing after all...

 

On close inspection it also appears that my fuel filter hasnt got the heat exchanger bottom either. luckily the coolant hoses run right past the bottom as it was designed to have one there so that aint too bad. There are plenty of 405's and Rovers to swipe one out of. (wont just be relying on this there will be 2 extra heat exchangers also)

 

Here is a link to the baisic plan that i'm working towards.

 

When the left hand solenoid is off, the veg oil circuit fuel cut off solenoind is off, allowing the veg oil to circulate while the coolant heat exchanger warms it all up. When the veg oil is warm enough the left hand solenoind switches over to veg oil and the fuel circuit cut off is switched on.

 

The right hand solenoid decides wether the excess fuel from the Injector pump and the engine goes back into the system, or into the veg oil tank (usefull for air purging).

 

This isnt absolutly exactly how i'm going to do it (misses temp gauge locations etc, plus I'm try to make up my mind if i can actually fit a coolant heat echanger under the bonnet or if ill have to use an electric heater just before the IP) but it gives you 95% of the jist of things, i'll update with photos, shopping list and full exact plan later.

 

Nate.

Edited February 15, 2006 by BrainFluid

[butpug 0]

Just a few things, constructive I hope;

 

Even heating the Veg oil to 80 oC will not bring the viscosity down low enough to match that of "pump" diesel. Diesel lies in a band between 5 and 10 centistokes (viscosity) and I haven't measured a heated veg oil, including some with additive packs that drops below 20 centistokes. So all this extra work done by the pump will undoubtedly lead to premature failure, especially on belt driven pumps.

 

One of our main problems was actually heating the fuel to 80 deg C. In order to achive this, we had to have the fuel pipe heated to 120 degC! If I remember correctly that was getting close to the flash point of the fuel.

 

Anyway my point is, it's quite possible to get the stuff flowing through the pipes, but I imagine the real long term problems will arise due to the viscosity.

[Guest BrainFluid]

Hi but pug!

 

I've been well busy recently so sorry I aint replied sooner...

 

I take it that you have tried this already? I now have all the bits and pieces ready for assembly and will be cobbling together a whole 'how to' which i'll post later.

 

With regards to premature pump failure due to higher viscosity, I am planning on putting an extra fuel pump into the works to relive the strain a little... Did you try this at all?

 

Also you say that you 'havent' measured the viscosity of heated oil. Was this a misprint?

 

Regards,

 

Nathan.

[butpug 0]

Alright,

 

Yeah it was a bit of a blunder on my part. What I meant to say is that you won't find a veg oil with viscosity as low as diesel and this will obviously give the pump more work to do. We measure the viscosity of all the oils that we put through the engine to try and understand what might be happening to the fuel in terms of density.

 

With regards to trying a supplimentary pump - I haven't tried! Our engine is gravity fed to the injectors, so the injector pump does all of the work. However I think if you were to fit a lift pump, the pressure offered by these (possibly 10-15psi?) wouldn't do a great deal to aleviate the work on the injector pump. If you did fit a secondary pump with a bit of "oomph" I'm not sure exactly how much that would help - maybe worth a try!

 

Its probably worth mentioning that the lubricity of veg oil is actually very good! Whilst the viscosity is high and hence work load done by the pump, lubrication of the injector components is not an issue. This is something which I've heard some people say is much worse than diesel - in fact pump diesel is packed full of additives to give it the nescessary lubrication qualities whereas veg oil can be run straight from the tub!

 

Good luck with the install Nathan!

 

 

 

Ian

[Flying205Nutter 4]

Interesting topic, I have been running on waste vegetable oil now for about 4 years, only switching back to diesel when the temperature's below 0 C as cold staring becomes an issue (Also slot in an MOT just in case the tester takes a dislike to the smell).

 

I run one tank and use petrol to thin the fuel as duty is already paid. I don't know what would happen if you got caught using kerosene or paraffin to thin the fuel as duty has not been paid and there is no box on the C&E form to do so.

 

I have and would recommend registering with C&E as people can smell you a mile away........ (you don't notice it after a month or so!!)

 

I do no modifications to the car and have had a ford fiesta 1.8D, golf 1.9D and now a Citroen ZX 1.9D the Citroen has a Lucas pump and so far has not let me down although everyone says the pump is made out of tin foil (been a year now).

 

The beauty of it is cost, its quieter and a bit faster.....

 

Only down sides are poor cold starting but a two tank system will fix that and remembering to send the Duty form off to C&E every month.

 

Good luck with it and welcome to the world of fuel at 0.271 pence per liter.....