Nothing

[eob 7]

It's a blessing in disguise.

 

My 205 GTi (1.6 Phase 2) has this insane habit of just deciding not to start. It's most prominent in cold spells and when I park near the beach Unfortunately, it was an intermittent problem that would rear its head every so often but would never fully just stop the car from working. It meant I couldn't really 'trust' the car, by bringing it on long journeys or anywhere where I'd have to be seen sitting there, cold cranking til the battery went dead :'D

 

Anyway, for starters, I swapped the stachymetric relay with one from a donor 309 GTi with no effect. In order of sequence, what parts would you swap over til the thing barked into life?

[maturin23 10]

I wouldn't immediately start swapping parts.

First off I'd see if the revcounter needle was bouncing slightly when it was turning over on the starter, if it was I'd check for a spark at a plug then check for fuel at an injector..

 

Then I'd post the results here for a real expert

 

Edited to say I would probably swap the coil and rotor arm and dizzy cap too before giving up and coming back on here - but only 'cos i have working spares!

Edited February 3, 2006 by maturin23

[eob 7]

Zero rev counter needle bounce?

 

(..this site rocks, seriously, let's do a group-buy on a block of flats in rural france near some decent driving roads..)

[maturin23 10]

to me it suggests the ECU isn't giving the signal to the ignition.

I've only had experience of this kind of troubleshooting on the Mi16 engine which doesn't have the tachy relay - so rather than guessing I'm sure someone else can help more!

 

Count me in on the group buy...

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

Well I've had a similar problem and have given up and parked the car (possibly to scrap later). Started off with it being unreliable to start occasionally first thing in the morning. However, eventually it started and then ran without problem. Initially it happend less than once per week. Eventually it ended up with me at work calling out the AA and getting recovered. It was clear when it was this problem as the rev counter woud be dead (e.g. no spark).

 

Result of Mr. AAs testing was that there was no spark but the ignition amp, coil, dizzy, leads, plugs were all fine. I changed the dizzy for a spare and it still won't start due to lack of spark.

 

What I don't understand is that it is only a problem with starting, once it fires it runs perfectly!!!!

 

Good luck, whatever this is it is a complete arse to find. There was someone else on here with a pretty much identical problem as well and we had a long running thread on the subject but neither of us solved it. Not sure what he has done with his car though...

 

Rob

 

P.S. ECU only controls the fuel, not the spark.

Edited February 3, 2006 by Rob_the_Sparky

[jackherer 543]

I'd check the connection between the dizzy and the ingnition amp.

[eob 7]

I suspect my problem is with whatever senses the revs (ie. the coil apparatus bit). How you can tell is that it runs fine once it's running (ie. injectors, coil etc all running perfectly), however, when it won't start, it's the very same as if it's been immobilised. No petrol smell from the exhaust. No spark.

 

If the ECU was dead it would spark but no petrol.

If the coil was dead it would smell of petrol but no spark.

 

When mine cranks, there is absolutely no smell of petrol from the exhaust which means that either the ECU is not firing the injectors or whatever is counting those revs isn't telling the ECU that the engine is turning over, and to start injecting.

 

I would bet any amount of money once I have mine in the garage, it'll be the coil sensor. I have no experience with these engines btw, I'm a Motronic man

[maturin23 10]

I vote for the ignition amp - good point Kieran - I forgot that I had the similar cut out, wait, restart probs that were caused by a crappy connection.

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

I'd check the connection between the dizzy and the ingnition amp.

 

My current guess as well but I con't answer why it should only be a problem on start-up and never when running. I have had this break on my other car and it killed the car at random times when driving it after I replaced the engine. Hence I think it is a long shot.

 

By the way this is how the system works...

 

Pick-ups in the dizzy send output to the ignition amp, this also then sends output to the ECU and a drive signal to the coil, hence controls spark and fuel.

 

Mine too appears not to be injecting either (would need to confirm that though) and given that I've changed the dizzy, AA man tested the ignition amp it makes the cable the most likely candidate, however unlikely that would seem to be given the symptoms...

 

Rob

Edited February 3, 2006 by Rob_the_Sparky

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

By the way, just remembered: it was TECKNOPUG that was the other person with a similar problem.

[eob 7]

One of my far out theories which may explain your problems is line-drop. When the alternator etc is running it's supplying enough juice overcome the deficiencies in the system, however, when you're cold cranking the demand/resistance in the system is that bit higher, which is when the dodgy connector/cable rears its ugly head.

 

I wonder if you hooked up the mother of all truck batteries to your car would you have the same problem

[eob 7]

Well, I should've taken the sensible route and start looking for spark/fuel injection etc before I pulled things apart but tonight, the force was with me, so I started taking her apart. Lo and behold... I've found not one problem, but ten.

 

I always knew the O-ring seal around the dizzy install was leaking slightly but this takes the biscuit. It's soaked my engine with 4-stroke and I'm guessing it could also be a good reason why the earth connector is sometimes 'unhappy'.

 

It also explains why I'm not getting ignition from time to time.

 

It also explains the lumpy idling considering the plastic connector for the MAF was kinked.

 

It also explains a few other running issues considering the lil vacuum hose that normally plugs onto the distributor has gone completely walkabout. It just doesn't exist anymore, the product of some cack handed spannering no doubt.

 

It also explains why my water temperature readings were complete nonsense. The oil has insulated the connectors on the sensors making them useless.

 

It also explains why my gearlinkage is so loose. The oil has destroyed the nylon cups in the linkage.

 

It also helped the heaters woes when I found another bleed screw beneath the dizzy which, when released, let out a lot of trapped air.

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2006 by eob

[eob 7]

I'm lucky enough to have a 309 GTi to swap bits onto to test them, so it's not...

 

- The dizzy

- The AFM

- The coil

- The stachymetric relay

 

And the car doesn't have an alarm etc.

 

In what order would you start checking the remaining bits? At this stage it can only really be...

 

- The fuel pump

- A relay

- HT lead betwixt the coil & distributor

- Wiring

- ECU

 

Or any other gremlins anyone can think of? Hate being carless, looking at a Nissan Bluebird for sale just in case...

 

Fix my car or I buy a Bluebird!!!

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

Ignition amp or the connections to/from it.

[Anthony 1,003]

My current guess as well but I con't answer why it should only be a problem on start-up and never when running. I have had this break on my other car and it killed the car at random times when driving it after I replaced the engine. Hence I think it is a long shot.

That's exactly what that does though in my experience - I've had grief from the 3-pin plug on the signal lead from the dizzy on three of my GTi's, and in each case it's given no spark/squirt in the morning but generally been OK once running. Take the plug apart and you'll find it'll be corroded to hell inside - clean it up, and it'll behave just fine afterwards.

 

No idea why it only affects it in the morning for the most part, but I'm assuming it's the cold and damp making a bad connection even worse. Certainly I've rarely had any problems where it's been warm and dry, just when winter rears it's ugly head and it's cold and damp in the morning.

 

Leave it long enough though, and it does start giving hassle when you're driving - after having my current 1.6 cut out 3 or 4 times whilst driving (and a wiggle of that connector get it going again) I decided to fix it properly - and touch wood it's behaved perfectly since

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

Cool, might not scrap it afterall then!!

[eob 7]

I've changed the whole dizzy assembly [taken the 205's one off and put it on the 309] and it runs fine? On visual inspection, the plug seems fine (shiny pins etc), do you mean it corrodes outside the pins Anthony? Ie. hack the plug off and solder a new one on?

 

(Word of advice BTW, the nuts on the dizzy assembly/ignition amp are usually in pieces from numerous timing sessions over the years. Well worth having two new ones ready if you're going near that part of the engine. And if you've got another 205 of any vintage on blocks, it's got lovely 11mm suitable nyloc nuts holding the front shox in )

[eob 7]

Anyway, after all that, she starts. Dizzy assy & air filter are the only replaced items with everything else pushed, jiggled and persuaded. 90% of me says it's either the main relays for the engine bay, or, the wire powering the coil.

 

I've noticed that one particular wire running to the coil appears to be melted slightly so that might just be it. I'll keep you guys tuned.

[peter 20]

This is exactly what mine is doing there is just no spark ive changed nearly evrything has any body got a tach relay for a turbo engine loom?im getting quite desperate now.help....please

[eob 7]

I think I fixed mine by accident but I'd appreciate some advice from the GTi wizards on this place (seriously, I brought mine to the best mechanic I know and he knew less than you guys, can you feel the love?)

 

There's a lead on mine which seems to go across the top of the block to the coil. Part of this lead was damaged. Sticking a piece of tape around the damaged cable seems to have, wow, cured my problem.

 

Why?

 

I'll post photographs etc tomorrow. How I discovered it was my coil isn't the one that originally came with the engine although it IS a Peugeot XU one. I drove away without the coil being strapped down and the engine would cut in and out. I inspected the cable, found a worn spot, taped it, and she now purrs nicely.

 

Answers on a postcard.

[eob 7]

Ok, more news. I'm updating at this stage just to help anyone experiencing similar problems.

 

When I fitted my distributor to the 309, the 309 started and ran fine. HOWEVER. With the 309 lying up in the garage for a few days, the 309 is now replicating all the problems the 205 had. ie. Not starting after being exposed to damp conditions.

 

My advice, swop the distributor out. Anthony & co were spot on in their diagnosis.

 

BTW... Is there any common Peugeot/Citroen (BX, 405 etc) that uses identical distributors to the 205 GTi? Could do with a replacement one for the 309 now?

[Anthony 1,003]

Usually the dizzy itself is fine - it's normally the seperately replaceable signal lead coming from the dizzy that's at fault, either because of a broken wire (usually causes the engine to randomly cut out and restart when you wiggle the wiring) or damp getting into the 3-pin plug and corroding the pins causing poor contact (usually won't start on damp mornings, but once started runs fine for the rest of the day)

 

Before condeming the dizzy, clean up the pins on both sides of that yellow 3-pin plug and see if that sorts out your problem. You can get a replacement lead from various dizzys if needed (mine came from a TU 309 IIRC), as they're something like £25 new from Peugeot!