[project] Silver 1.9 Gti 16v Project (now Gti-6)

[taylorspug 7]

On 24/02/2018 at 7:54 PM, mmt said:

Superb. Thanks a lot. Think I Got it now

:-). 

No worries, good luck with it.

On 25/02/2018 at 2:39 AM, petert said:

Good work on the strut tops and getting +6 caster. You've probably discovered the wheels now foul on the bumper etc. At least mine do with 205x50/15. I was also concerned that the PAS would boil with that much caster, as the ram is effectively now jacking up a corner on each turn. I'm still running the standard cooling loop and it runs at approx. 95 deg C. Any higher and I'd fit a small cooler.

Hello Peter.  Many thanks for the insight.  I haven't discovered that yet as it happens!  I did notice they were a bit close which may be an issue in the future.  I've read through your topic and see it is a problem you are coming up against, and tbh I think I will too as time goes on.  At the moment I'm only on 7" wide wheels with a pretty standard offset.  This is great as it fits everything in a standard Gti arch and clearly it swerves me a problem that you are having.  However as the car progresses after I initially get it up and running I will almost certainly be going to a much wider wheel.  It's just a cost I don't want to encounter at the moment as it also means I will want to drop back to a 205 width axle on the rear (something else I really want to do but am holding off on for cost reasons).  Looking at your topic its going to take some decent cutting and refabricating of the bumper mounts which I will bear in mind when the time comes.  Are you running a lower ET/wider offset wheel as you are only running a slightly wider tyre than me currently?

 

Your second point is something I had been thinking about, if for no other reason than the car currently doesn't have PAS at all.  It has a manual rack from a company called West Midlands Motorsport which is around 2.4 turns LTL.  So my options are:

 

Leave it which I think is going to be a non starter once I drive the car with +6 caster.

Fit a hydraulic setup with maybe a Xsara rack or even a standard Gti PAS rack to start with (saying this because I have one in stock!).

Leave the manual rack on there and go for a electric setup.  This on paper would be the ideal setup but I'm concerned over getting the steering to feel right.

 

My concern about the hydraulic setup was based around getting a hydraulic system sorted with minimal weight which I'm sure would be do-able but also the strain on the system as you have outlined.  I think ultimately its going to be something I will come back to once I'm up and running although I know I will have to do something.  Interesting info about the fluid temperature though many thanks for that- I'd considered if the standard cooling loop would be enough and it looks like it may be just about fine especially here in our colder climate.

[petert 586]

Wheels are 15x8 -4ET.

 

You'll need to start doing some serious gym work if you're going to run +6 caster with a 2.4 rack. We lost PAS weekend before last and it was miserable trying to drive it with 225 tyres, even with a 2.7 rack.

 

You could fit an electric hydraulic pump, as my friend Parry has, but the ultimate is the full electric set up.

[blandy 29]

Loved my elec steering column as could be adjusted to be perfect with 10 settings only ever used 1 click on track as was just right but could wack it up when in the paddock to finger light steering. Would do the same again every time

[Tom Fenton 1,541]

I'm sure on my car I measured the caster at nearly 4 degrees, I use a Saxo/106 electric/hydraulic PAS pump and an early Xsara 2.4 turn rack. No issues with it and the steering/turn in is great.

[taylorspug 7]

11 hours ago, petert said:

Wheels are 15x8 -4ET.

 

You'll need to start doing some serious gym work if you're going to run +6 caster with a 2.4 rack. We lost PAS weekend before last and it was miserable trying to drive it with 225 tyres, even with a 2.7 rack.

 

You could fit an electric hydraulic pump, as my friend Parry has, but the ultimate is the full electric set up.

Ok so you have an inch wider wheel and more (or less depending on your viewpoint) offset.  Ultimately I will be going the same way so I think my bumper clearance problems will be similar to yours.  As for the steering this is very much my concern- I don't think I'm going to be able to maintain the effort over a number of laps.  I was surprised when I fitted the 2.4 rack actually how it didn't seem to increase the workload especially on track.  I think this was due to just doing a lot less arm twirling over the previous rack which was just a standard manual Gti item.  Now however is a different ball game with the added caster and potentially running wider tyres.  The Saxo etc electric pump is a well trodden path- but I think for what I have now I would be better just going straight down the electric route.

11 hours ago, blandy said:

Loved my elec steering column as could be adjusted to be perfect with 10 settings only ever used 1 click on track as was just right but could wack it up when in the paddock to finger light steering. Would do the same again every time

Ok that's great feedback thanks for letting me know.  I've never tried a 205 with an electric setup so I couldn't give an opinion really so it's good to hear some actual experience.  My only concern with it is based around steering feedback and modulation- I just really don't want to end up with a lifeless feeling from the front axle.

1 hour ago, Tom Fenton said:

I'm sure on my car I measured the caster at nearly 4 degrees, I use a Saxo/106 electric/hydraulic PAS pump and an early Xsara 2.4 turn rack. No issues with it and the steering/turn in is great.

Tom thanks for your input.  I can quite imagine some cars see 4 degrees caster on a more conventional setup.  In my experience the variation in 205 geometry even with like for like parts fitted is really eye opening.  309 wishbones is a good example- I've measured 205s in the past after fitting 309 wishbones to them and they barely have half a degree of negative camber!  Whereas when I did the same work to mine I had a solid -1 degree even with standard top mounts.  Anyway I digress.  If I were to go that way the early Xsara rack would be my ideal setup if I could find one.  Its a tried and tested route your setup so that's a major plus point.  Out of interest (and its probably in the weights thread but I may as well ask on the off chance)- do you know roughly what sort of weight the Saxo/106 electric pump setup is?

[petert 586]

I ran +4 for a while but going to +6 was a whole new world. It becomes a totally different car. I almost ran off the track on the first corner. Interestingly, my son's 2012 WRX runs +6 from the factory.

[welshpug 1,657]

One concern I would have in using an electric column is the increased strain on the lower UJ, I'm not sure they will last very long bouncing kerbs with 8" slicks and lots of castor?

[petert 586]

21 hours ago, welshpug said:

One concern I would have in using an electric column is the increased strain on the lower UJ, I'm not sure they will last very long bouncing kerbs with 8" slicks and lots of castor?

Caster. That's a valid point but so many have been done now, to many race cars, I'm sure it will be fine. Who bounces kerbs? The really nasty load is getting out of the pit garage.

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

27 minutes ago, petert said:

Caster. 

You Aussies and your Americanised spellings!  

[taylorspug 7]

On 27/02/2018 at 10:18 AM, petert said:

I ran +4 for a while but going to +6 was a whole new world. It becomes a totally different car. I almost ran off the track on the first corner. Interestingly, my son's 2012 WRX runs +6 from the factory.

This is the effect I'm expecting it will have so that's encouraging to hear!  From my experience of fwd on track the key is getting it to turn with the least aggressive front axle setup possible- caster/castor is the ideal solution.

On 27/02/2018 at 11:15 AM, welshpug said:

One concern I would have in using an electric column is the increased strain on the lower UJ, I'm not sure they will last very long bouncing kerbs with 8" slicks and lots of castor?

 

On 28/02/2018 at 8:23 AM, petert said:

Caster. That's a valid point but so many have been done now, to many race cars, I'm sure it will be fine. Who bounces kerbs? The really nasty load is getting out of the pit garage.

It's a valid point, obviously the load has to be absorbed through the steering somewhere and the lower UJ would take a fair amount of that on a full electric setup.  I'd expect the tyre and the shock absorber to take a decent amount of the shock loading out of running a kerb.  I'd also expect other parts to give out first in that situation (wishbone pinch bolt for example).  Granted if you hit a particularly offensive kerb hard enough to actually bounce over it you are going to do damage regardless in my experience.  The diff on my E30 managed to smash itself to pieces after the rear wheel took a good side loading from a strike on a large kerb (old Snetterton circuit) so I know it happens.  I've never personally seen a 205 lower UJ fail so I can't say I have experience of why it would!  I know you are involved in a decent amount of rallying WP, is it a problem that you see there?  If I was to see any signs of failure or wear in that area I'm sure I could get some sort of uprated/larger UJ to do the job.

[welshpug 1,657]

I haven't seen any instances of actual failure but the cars i'm involved with have tended to be manual steering fairly basic cars, or retaining the original hydraulic steering assistance.

 

As you say its probably not something that would fail before you find play in it, the Corsa columns I have seen do have a much heavier duty looking joint on them but these are all dispensed with when fitted to anything other than a corsa!

[taylorspug 7]

I'd ideally like to keep the manual steering if I could as its so much simpler/lighter etc and I have the ideal rack already.  Certainly I will initially build it with manual steering and see how I go.  Mainly as it won't cost me anything in time or money to do this!  But I think it potentially will be a bit too heavy over a race distance, and it's also a lot harder to catch big slides with heavy steering and a plate diff as you just can't twirl fast enough sometimes as I'm sure you know!  Interesting about the joint in the Corsa columns though.  As with all these things I'd keep an eye on it, as from a point of view of competing with the car it would be getting a full going over after every race meeting anyway.

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

The 205 steering uj is a fairly substantial thing compared to other ones you see used in corsa based kits, as you say it’s a fairly straight forward fabrication job to fit a different joint if you felt it needed it. 

 

The saxo/106 pump isn’t particularily heavy, I’d say it’s possibly lighter as a complete setup compared to a conventional crank driven hydro set up, it can be fitted below the header tank with very short pipe runs to the ram and the integral reservoir on the later ones saves you  having a separate reservoir. 

Ive seen BMW’s running them on slicks with clubsport racks and no issues, I’m sure you know how much caster an E30s/36 runs as standard never mind circuit cars! 

Call me a girl but I wouldn’t have a car without PAS now, wrestling a manual rack distracts from driving fast in my eyes so PAS is faster! 

 

What are are your plans with the wishbones? Any roll centre adjustment?  

I feel a more positive connection at the lower ball joint is really worthwhile, I’m sure people will disagree but when I moved from standard ball joints to rose joints the difference was night and day, the front of the car just feels so much more rigid and positive (for want of a better word), allowing the suspension to do its job rather than having a load of flex throwing itself into the mix. 

Edited March 1, 2018 by allanallen

[petert 586]

13 hours ago, taylorspug said:

I'd ideally like to keep the manual steering if I could as its so much simpler/lighter etc and I have the ideal rack already.  Certainly I will initially build it with manual steering and see how I go. 

I think you'll sh!t yourself just trying to get it out of the garage and onto the trailer.

[taylorspug 7]

On 01/03/2018 at 11:57 AM, allanallen said:

The 205 steering uj is a fairly substantial thing compared to other ones you see used in corsa based kits, as you say it’s a fairly straight forward fabrication job to fit a different joint if you felt it needed it. 

 

The saxo/106 pump isn’t particularily heavy, I’d say it’s possibly lighter as a complete setup compared to a conventional crank driven hydro set up, it can be fitted below the header tank with very short pipe runs to the ram and the integral reservoir on the later ones saves you  having a separate reservoir. 

Ive seen BMW’s running them on slicks with clubsport racks and no issues, I’m sure you know how much caster an E30s/36 runs as standard never mind circuit cars! 

Call me a girl but I wouldn’t have a car without PAS now, wrestling a manual rack distracts from driving fast in my eyes so PAS is faster! 

 

What are are your plans with the wishbones? Any roll centre adjustment?  

I feel a more positive connection at the lower ball joint is really worthwhile, I’m sure people will disagree but when I moved from standard ball joints to rose joints the difference was night and day, the front of the car just feels so much more rigid and positive (for want of a better word), allowing the suspension to do its job rather than having a load of flex throwing itself into the mix. 

Duly noted about the Saxo/106 pump- it's almost certainly the way I would go if I decide to go down the hydro route (which I doubt as I have to get a whole new steering rack for that).  Funnily enough mentioning the BMW thing it was a conversion I was going to do on a supercharged E46 M3 at my last job before we parted ways, that had a clubsport rack.  I was also planning on using one on my E30 which has a clubsport rack too!

 

Glad you asked about the wishbones as it is something I will be coming on to in the future.  I will certainly be doing some sort of rollcentre/bumpsteer correction.  Obviously this means I will indeed be using a rose joint at the very least on the outer wishbone.  I agree with you Allan it gives a much more positive feeling and for me much more feedback through the steering too. It's not something I'm actually working on right now but I'm just trying to weight up my options with regard to how I achieve it.  In my mind I've got 3 options- a modified standard 205 wishbone with an insert welded in, buy a decent set of fully rose jointed wishbones or just make a jig plate and do my own.  Thoughts are ongoing over this.  I'm a bit further on than I've got on the topic at the moment but I'm trying to get the shell sorted before I concentrate too much on bits that bolt to it.  Hub-wise at the very minimum I will be using a hollow hub rather than the solid ones currently on the car.  I'm also thinking I could potentially use the larger 18mm balljoint ones from a slightly later 306, although I'm not sure the pin is the weak point- the pinch bolt has always given out (ie bent) before the wishbone pin itself has been damaged in my experience.  I need to get proper eyes on both to see if the casting around the 18mm pin hubs is bigger than that of the 16mm ones, or if its the same casting just with a bigger hole.  If that's the case it seems a little pointless changing to the 18mm hubs.  I'm not sure I am keen on converting to a 406 style hub which I know would solve a few issues I have just mentioned!  Reason for this (apart from the fact I'd immediately need new brakes and possibly driveshafts) mainly is I would still like the car to broadly run the same kind of setup a standard 205 would with regard to the style of hub and method of attachment.  Sets of rules are funny things especially in circuit racing and 'identifiable as original' can at least be stretched to a 306 hub!  Another reason the top mounts are the way they are is to comply with a pretty specific rule from the main set I'm working to over what you are and aren't allowed to change- so if I'm doing it for that I might as well be wary with the rest of it! 

On 02/03/2018 at 1:36 AM, petert said:

I think you'll sh!t yourself just trying to get it out of the garage and onto the trailer.

I think you are probably spot on!  My initial outing(s) with the car will just be shaking it down anyway so if the change needs to happen I can do it after this time, and I'm not in the situation of being flat out from the get go.  I was reminded the other day that I have in fact driven a 205 with electric power steering- a friends tarmac stage car which is actually quite similar to mine in spec, just without the big geometry changes.  From what I recall it felt good, steering wasn't too light etc.  We will see.  At the moment I've got so many other things to sort out I'm just trying to get the car to a decent point in all areas and more importantly actually running for the first time in nearly 10 years!  Apart from buying a few expensive bits I haven't even started on the engine yet...

[Tom Fenton 1,541]

Standard wishbones with an insert work well, I've three sets on my various 205's, but its easy when you've made the jig and have the machine to prepare the wishbone for the insert. Fully r/j wishbones mean you then can't use the standard anti roll bar as there isn't clearance where it comes round the rear inner pivot.

 

Heres how I do it

 

Untitled by Tom Fenton, on Flickr

 

Untitled by Tom Fenton, on Flickr

 

Untitled by Tom Fenton, on Flickr

[taylorspug 7]

Tom- they look proper job!  Jig looks like it works well, I see you have set up the insert milled at an angle so the spherical joint sits as flat as it can in its housing once it's bolted on the car and attached to the hub.  I've seen other sets with the insert welded in flat which I've always regarded as a mistake.  As you say it's easy once you are set up for it- I must admit I'm rather envious of your setup there as you clearly have space for some decent size machines!  I'd dearly love space for even a small machining setup to do this type of work myself.  It's frustrating as it means I have to pay someone else to do it!

 

The issue with the front ARB on a full RJ setup was one of the negative points I had for that route, but then I thought would I actually miss the front ARB anyway?  The chances are my car is going to end up being run on slicks, so realistically that's going to be 500lb+ on the front axle.  Is a standard 205 or even a 309 Gti bar going to make much difference to that?  I'd imagine I would need one quite a bit bigger, and I'd also like something with some adjustability so I could use the ARB as a tuning tool for the balance of the car.  Which basically leaves me ditching the standard ARB anyway!  One way or another with wishbones I'm either making a jib for standard or RJ'ed ones, or spending a reassuring amount of money on some good off the shelf ones.  Guess which RJ wishbones I WONT be buying from reading that statement...

Edited March 5, 2018 by taylorspug

[petert 586]

The trouble with the Grp A insert type idea is that you can't get enough castor adjustment, as the bushes (or rod ends) are parallel. You don't want a front ARB once you've got over 500lbs front and rear.

Edited March 5, 2018 by petert

[jamie_1992 66 1 Cars]

10 hours ago, Tom Fenton said:

Standard wishbones with an insert work well, I've three sets on my various 205's, but its easy when you've made the jig and have the machine to prepare the wishbone for the insert. Fully r/j wishbones mean you then can't use the standard anti roll bar as there isn't clearance where it comes round the rear inner pivot.

 

Heres how I do it

 

Untitled by Tom Fenton, on Flickr

 

Untitled by Tom Fenton, on Flickr

 

Untitled by Tom Fenton, on Flickr

Do you sell these Tom? 

[mmt 15]

Really Nice wishbones. Great inspiration. Who supply the ball joints and What size ? 

[Batfink 201]

On 05/03/2018 at 8:35 PM, taylorspug said:

Tom- they look proper job!  Jig looks like it works well, I see you have set up the insert milled at an angle so the spherical joint sits as flat as it can in its housing once it's bolted on the car and attached to the hub.  I've seen other sets with the insert welded in flat which I've always regarded as a mistake.  As you say it's easy once you are set up for it- I must admit I'm rather envious of your setup there as you clearly have space for some decent size machines!  I'd dearly love space for even a small machining setup to do this type of work myself.  It's frustrating as it means I have to pay someone else to do it!

 

The issue with the front ARB on a full RJ setup was one of the negative points I had for that route, but then I thought would I actually miss the front ARB anyway?  The chances are my car is going to end up being run on slicks, so realistically that's going to be 500lb+ on the front axle.  Is a standard 205 or even a 309 Gti bar going to make much difference to that?  I'd imagine I would need one quite a bit bigger, and I'd also like something with some adjustability so I could use the ARB as a tuning tool for the balance of the car.  Which basically leaves me ditching the standard ARB anyway!  One way or another with wishbones I'm either making a jib for standard or RJ'ed ones, or spending a reassuring amount of money on some good off the shelf ones.  Guess which RJ wishbones I WONT be buying from reading that statement...

I dont know if these will fit a standard subframe (though the mounting points are the same position), This is the design which is going on my car (ignore the extra mounting point)
Track only so I'm ditching the ARB.
If you are ditching the ARB you can get a stronger design.